There’s a disbalance definitely. A warrior’s second wind skills allows to strike just after grip. This makes a warrior’s grip more powerful than even prime monk’s grip. Of course, the situation will change with deathtouch. But that is too far away. For years a prime warrior will grip better than a monk. Also using the same skill it can strike twice per round. Which again makes prime warrior strike more powerful than monk’s. There’s definitely a disbalance.
Wraithtouch & best damage reduction don’t balance this at all taking into account rest of warrior benefits(parry/riposte, ton of hps, early entrench and triple attack).
I understand that warrior has to be overpowered, because SlothMUD is group-orientired mud. But I think disbalance gap in this case is too big.
Maybe give monk some child version of second wind which works only for strike? Or lower deathtouch level?
Shhh…yes, second wind is OP….
Noooo…don’t complain about it…
thx
Quote: There’s a disbalance definitely.
Of course there is, that’s the entire point of a multiclass system. I won’t attempt to argue that second wind isn’t good, because that would be ludicrous. At least for my build, it is the strongest of the warrior prime abilities.
On the other hand, you did conveniently leave the monk prime abilities ‘focus’ and ‘kensai’ out of your argument. By your logic, will warriors be getting a baby version of that? Although focusing requires patience, it adds more damage than a quick strike. Unlike second wind, it doesn’t even cost movement. Disbalance?
Cheers!
My point was that primary class should do its main ability far better than non-primary. I.e. let’s compare warriors and necros. Warrior can cancel order followers lags. But reduced order lag + juju + bonus pet points make necro far better necro.
But it is very disappointing to realize that warriors are better monks than monks. Even if focused grip does more damage than non-focused + strike, double strike per round makes warriors more powerful bare-handed fighters. Wraithtouch is used pretty rarely. And deathtouch is unbelievable far away.
I agree that child version of second wind is stupid idea, just wanted to offer something.
Decent solution would be to allow prime monks make two monk actions(such as strike or stun) per round. Taking into account that prime monk strike is stronger, this solution will keep monks superior in their specialization - bare-handed fightning.
I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to monk primes getting a decrease in their strike lag if they prove to be struggling. Currently strike lag is slightly more than a combat round. It could easily be brought equal to ‘kick’ (for primes only), or perhaps slightly lower. Twice a round without a serious movement or other cost would make the mages cry foul. They spend 25-50 mana a round to do similar damage to a monk double striking.
However, you’ve got your work cut out convincing the Powers What Is that monks are suffering. We haven’t been able to sell the case for bards, and there’s rarely one logged in above level 15.
It’s not like there’s a vast fleet of warrior prime “monks”. There’s a big opportunity cost for them. As far as I know, there’s only one warrior brave/foolish enough to completely eschew weapondam and bust out the fists. Investing all your drachma into monk gear also makes you a pathetic tank compared to all the traditional warriors. (Josiah tanks at -12.0, but could be -13.2 right now if he’d spent drachma differently). And in the end (9x40), you do barely more damage than a warrior with +30 weapondam. The real warrior has AC and doesn’t have to spend their action every round striking in order to keep up. On the other hand, they can’t rock the solo grip xp. It’s a tradeoff that makes sense.
My point is simple. Right now, it is pointless to make monk prime. If one wants to play a monk, he’d better make warrior and put monk second or third. He’ll be able to do everything monk can even better than monk(double strike). And also make a decent tank and have others warrior benefits. And this information isn’t written anywhere, one has to figure it himself. And when he does(after advancing monk pretty high, going through reroll hell, etc), he may very disappointed. So the most simple solution would be just to write in wiki and in help files: “warriors are better monks than monks”.
But more elegant solution would be to buff monks. Two years ago necros were buffed: http://www.slothmud.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3801
Now, I doubt any necro can complain that warriors are better necros. Make similar thing with monk.
About double strikes. There could be new primary monk immediate skill: “double strike”. It costs 40 mv. And does 2 strikes. Rough and simple solution.
What do you say to the argument that Monk prime damage reduction enables the monk to deflect damage while still wearing damage gear?
Also doesn’t monk prime have some regenerative powers over warrior prime?
I’m a little ignorant of the benefits of monk prime and I appreciate the info you’re putting out.
I think if we put all these(including death and wraith touches) on one side. And grip+strike, double strikes, str coming first in stato, massive critical hit on second. It’ll make monks, at least, even monks as warriors. While monks should be far better monks than anyone else. Otherwise there’s no point to choose em.
It seems like you’re obsessing over second wind and not really considering the whole monk picture / not even willing to look at the other benefits of monk.
Honestly, the only remedy to your grievance would be to nerf second wind and I don’t see a lot of support for that.
It’s not as though there are a lot of warriors out there playing monk style, so it’s not a big problem. There also is no paucity of monk characters and it is most certainly a viable prime class. You’re not going to convince the admin that monk needs more melee damage.
Are there any existing examples of players who are taking advantage of this situation? Is Josiah grip-striking and double-striking? And if this strategy seems so good to you, why not just do it and play Wa/Mo. It kinda seems like you’re comparing Monk prime to something that may not even exist.
Quote: Are there any existing examples of players who are taking advantage of this situation? Is Josiah grip-striking and double-striking?
Josiah does. He rarely double strikes in groups, because the movement cost is immense. While soloing, he almost always strikes immediately after a grip. He also casts greater refresh four or five times a tick, and runs out of mana pretty darn fast.
My grip does a little under 500 damage on average, and the followup strike about 150.
Skyv’s deathtouch does 1000 damage easily, and probably over 1500 if he bothers to focus. There’s definitely reasons to be prime. You can’t wave away every monk prime skill and expect anyone to take your argument seriously. Yes, deathtouch requires lots of xp… but right now you’re comparing your 2x40 monk to an 8x40 warrior. Try it again with some levels.
Even if monk win at fight opener, they seems to do same or even less bare-handed damage per round than warriors. Which I consider wrong. Not sure about exact number. Supposable, Skyv does 6 attacks with 55 damage and one 200 damage strike, total amount is 655 + 200 = 530. While Josiah’s attack is 50 damage, and strike is 150, total amount is 650 + 2 * 150 = 600. Maybe even more, taking into account warrior’s prime massive critical hit. That makes warrior better bare-handed killer of mobs with 5000+ hps. While soloing big mobs is signigicant part of the game.
So here’s another suggestion. Add prime monk spell ‘Five Fingers of Death’. It costs 100 mana and lasts for 1 tick, so it’s unlikely to be used in groups. It makes hands glow red and adds, say, 15(maybe 10 for non-avatar, 15 for avatar) damage for each attack. With it Skyv’s round damage will be 6*70 + 200 = 620. Which makes him rightful winner in the maximum round damage contest.
I’d like to point out that Josiah smells.
However, it would be interesting to get the perspective of, say, Jhereg or Stilgar on this. I’m fairly sure neither of them feels they’re overpowered. :)
I love this conversation apart from the fact that you really don’t have numbers. But even if you did, does a comparison of Skyv to Josiah really justify the conclusion that monk damage should be increased? There are 8 classes after all, not two. Do the other six get something too?
I keep thinking it comes down to Warrior is somewhat over-powered rather than that monk is under-powered. What you are really asking for is that Josiah be nerfed down and stop being allowed to benefit from the unbalances as you perceive them. Josiah has always excelled at finding the optimal strategies and making the noobs jealous. I suggest copying his strategies instead of calling them out.
It wasn’t long ago Dragoth was on a tirade against Wimpy for taking to such good use the control undead ability, to the point of calling Wimpy a cheater…merely for using his skills to best advantage.
So you have to watch how you approach these things and make sure you’re being objective and not acting out of envy. If you continue to harp on the note that Josiah fights better than Skyv unfairly, you won’t get what you want.
Instead just present your skill idea as a stand alone idea that has merit, which I believe your idea does and market your idea to a particular coder and try to hit them at the right time. Also it would help to continue to gather data and continue the conversation. Honestly I think at present you won’t attract a coder to your idea, but if the conversation continues it can be a seed for future changes. My reason for saying so is that the coder involved would have to dedicate a lot of research time into the numbers to do it right and we’re well into springtime.
I created this topic, because of disappointment. I like playing monk style and so I created monk, assuming that is best choice for bare-handed fighting. It turned out, I was wrong. If I’d go with warrior-monk, I’d be great bare-handed fighter and had all warrior benefits as well. That is a big dissapoinment indeed. And, I suppose, many other monks may experience it one day, after learning game mechanics. So I consider it is correct to bring this problem for the public discussions. At least, monks will be warned. And may reconsider making prime monks. And avoid that disappointment.
Again, I am against nerfing second wind. Warriors has to be overpowered. So people choose warriors and there always plenty of tanks available. But monks still should dominate in bare-handed fighting.
About other classes. If their representatives consider warriors to dominate in their primary area, noone prevents them to create corresponding topics and discuss it. However, I really doubt that warriors make best necros or best mages or best druids. It seems to be pure monks’ issue.
About attracting coders to an idea. I dont like sales style. Because it is often based on some kind of deception. So I go with direct and fair style, presenting the problem as I see it and offering the solution. I agree, it is unlikely to be implemented. But the reason is not in wrong sales strategy, but because coders are people too. We, players, get fun from playing. They get fun adding features, balancing classes, etc. I guess, they have enough of their own ideas to provide them with fun implementing them for long time. Being programmer, I know how hard is to code something you’re not interested in. Especially if that task isn’t part of you job, which you paid for, but is part of your hobby project. But…there’s no harm in trying. At least, as I said, my fellow monks will be warned.
Didn’t I just nerf Second Wind immensely for Sloth IV:)
Quote: If I’d go with warrior-monk, I’d be great bare-handed fighter and had all warrior benefits as well.
You haven’t actually demonstrated this, you know. I’d also point out that at lower levels, without a great deal of +damage gear, riposte is incredibly powerful – and you can’t do that barehanded, y’know.*
I’m not trying to be rude, but until you can demonstrate that a 2x40 Wa/Mo is actually much better at monking than a 2x40 Prime Monk, it’s hard to conclude anything but that you’re suffering from acute josiaphilia**.
- I don’t have numbers easily accessible right now – anybody care to comment on the awesomeness of riposte? :)
** Also known as being insanely jealous of Josiah’s levels, gear, and most of all expertise. Note to imms: please don’t add this disease to game. I don’t need to suffer this malady twice.
Well, I’ve created wa/dr/mo. Rolling it. And kicking myself for not keeping roll #67. Maybe in month or so I’ll reach 3x40 and prove my point.
I look forward to you realizing that you’ll never hit 25 damage reduction, and posting that monks make better tanks than warriors. ;)
Thanks everyone for replies. Because of it, my opinion has been changed from “warriors make better monks than monks” to “warriors make even monks as monks”. But even if warriors make slightly worser monks, it is still pointless to choose monks. That’s my new point, I’ll try to prove. Of course, I may get wrong.
I should apologize for the high levels of snark I’ve been using. Therefore: sorry!
But MAN it sucks that Skyv can laugh at mobs that hit me for 500/round. :) On an unrelated note, wtb damage reduction gems.
No offence. I understand warriors are worried about second wind may be nerfed again, but I hope that wouldn’t happen.
Not worried about second wind being nerfed. More observing that NO class is immune to being out-classed by a truly high-level character.
We have no plans on touching Second Wind again.
Agreed Van 8)
Fine. Now I am assured that this topic won’t create problems for warriors, especially ones investing dr in monk eq and playing monk style. Everyone is warned and if they find my reasoning solid, they’ll not make mistake by choosing monk prime. So I am happy. Could go on and advance Arador(which is mentioned wa/dr/mo). I’ll write here about comparison warrior and monks in monking upon reaching 3x40. Thanks everyone again.
Hung wrote: . Everyone is warned and if they find my reasoning solid, they’ll not make mistake by choosing monk prime. So I am happy.
I’ve read this thread several times and have not seen one good reason not to make a monk prime!
Sorry :?:
Splork wrote:
Hung wrote: . Everyone is warned and if they find my reasoning solid, they’ll not make mistake by choosing monk prime. So I am happy.
I’ve read this thread several times and have not seen one good reason not to make a monk prime!
Sorry :?:
Would you like to buy Yang then? :roll: http://www.slothmud.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4228
I’ll combine my reasoning in one place.
Most of the mobs I hit are solid. Ethereal mobs are hit pretty rarely. I clean out xanth ghosts recently for exp. But life without wraithtouch wouldn’t be problematic for me. There’s enough solo exp in Mansion of Mourned and Mount Olympus, where all mobs are solid. But I do hit solid mobs for eq very often and it seems that I don’t benefit at all in barehanded combat against it comparing with warrior monks. Their grip+strike makes close to my focused grip damage. Their 2 strikes per round allow them to make even more damage per round. Of course, situation would change with deathtouch. But, firstly, it is very far way. For the significant part of the game warrior monks would be better monks than me. And even after it, their massive critical hit + 2 strikes allow them to make more damage per round. So, I think, at this stage warrior monks will be even monks as prime monks. So choosing warrior monk means being decent monk(taking into account dam reduce, it maybe slightly worser than primary monk) + gain all warrior benefits. Which means choosing primary monks pointless. Of course, I could be wrong.
Serious question: have you leveled a monk prime past 3x40?
Levels do matter.
I did: http://www.slothmud.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4217
Anyway, I suggest we finish this discussion for now. Until I get Arador to 3x40. I totally agree that weak point in my position, that I reason not from real experience running warrior-monk, but from pure theory. As I said I am pretty happy with the discussion results. As my new primary character is warrior, I am glad to hear that second wind isn’t going to be touched. So I will enjoy great monk and descent warrior in one.
I thought I’d chime in since I heard my name referenced. I play Stilgar, a 4x40 Wa/Mo. I’ve been building AC gear and don’t have the time or drachma for a real damage set. I usually solo with deathgrip and strike, but I never 2nd wind a strike immediately after grip. I just strike 3 times during the grip and switch back to my sword after I release. Van is right, the riposte damage is huge for a mid-level warrior. I also like to use my sword for deathblow. Getting the final blow in when the mob is at 14% health is huge and saves many rounds of combat, also with a movement cost. Between deathgrips to start the fight and the deathblow to finish, there really aren’t any extra mvs for me to even use 2nd wind the way it was talked about. 2nd wind is a strong skill, but the mv penalty makes it not overpowered.
The only examples above were regarding 1 extraordinary player playing the game the way he likes and does an amazing job at it. I believe the minimum level to be effective at that type of gameplay would be at least 6x40. It takes a lot of drachma, gems, time and gold to build that eq set.
My $0.02.
Stilgar