Newbies are not affected by nocap

9 and 14lev druids in and out of forms are not affected by nocap from the house of the Winter Wolf.

I tested this on my own druid.

As I understood it, nocap does not remove built in newb caps (if it did, that would encourage people to really scam on nocap days and get their alts ridiculously quick levels running with another)…it only applies to chars that have extended past a certain point cap wise (i.e. past newb levs)

Eze, nocap still has a cap, just x7-8 larger, than normal. It doesn’t actually remove the cap, so a 1x40 can’t get full 50mil from a morted mob, 12.5mil at best, irrc. So, if a 20lev player was under nocap effect, he’d have a cap of 5.6-6.4mil.

As for the rest, that’s my understanding as well, but it’s not clear why it has to be this way.

No one will mort a real newbie into oblivion for the very reasons this singular limit is placed and because it takes time to mort a lot. I am not aware of cases, where morting people under 40 yielded a clueless character, which would’ve prompted the limit. I am aware, though, of plenty of avatars not having a clue where their eq mob is or how to get to it, because they got their levels in the grand exp groups imms steer us to.

And if an experienced player wants to get morts as a newbie, I don’t see reasons to limit their progress by making them immune to nocaps. After all, remorts get permanent x2 exp bonus, which is far, far stronger, than a temporary nocap extra.

Morting is hard: you spend more efforts/mana not to hit the mob, rather than kill it, so it is a sufficient limit towards limiting the exp/hr, in addition to the rarity of the nocap extra. After a certain level, it’s easier to 2man exp, rather than mort.

And if someone does invest lots of time and effort into morting mobs to his friend, especially, if he lost his 5x40 char in the mass wipe, I say they deserve to use the same extra everyone else does.

You mentioned ‘scam morting their alts’. What exactly do you mean - not grinding through Valk and 2x20-1x40 solo exp?

No, I’m saying any newb limits should remain because it’s bad enough:

You have all lev 20 valkers then all 4x40-9x40 avatars…why?

Because people run their veteran friends’ newb-level alts all over lyme and get them on par.
This limits grouping through mid levs, a time when true newbs actually need the support of those chars to…ya know…actually learn the structure of sloth groups within eq/xp, learn the ropes, mutually gain through the mud…rather than be left in the cold by those being isolationist and elitist on lyme with their small cadre of old-timers dragging them around.

This leads to new players quitting at mid levs. Can’t tell you how many truly new characters I’ve tried to help get through newb levs and get them self-sufficient by midlevs. Then they see the eq needed to even become decent at mid-levs and they say ‘well, i’ll definitely need a small group for this.’ To get the decent eq, they need some already decent eq to even come close to soloing. The usual mantra by the experienced vets when talking about running groups for mid levs off lyme is usually more subtly put…but basically comes out as ‘find a way to solo it…well, i have mine…get yours or die/quit and get out of my way’….when these same characters acquired a lot of their core pieces along the way through the exact groups they’re now denying mid-levs of. Why? because everyone gets their high levs and doesn’t give a shit about new playerbase (specifically helping them get equipped) and would rather camp and autobot lyme (b/c god forbid you don’t have that 10th damage point bought from mayor). Let’s just 2-3 man grind the same 5 lyme areas all day and sometimes drag our lev 20 friends around while burying our head in the sand….meanwhile with the new playerbase dying.

Imms can get mad all they want that I’m posting this here, but it’s the truth. This is not the sloth community I remember. Sitting on your hands about this issue will speed up this death by 1000 cuts we’re already sinking into with new playerbase.

I guess you are right, to an extent.

I agree that there needs to be a medium level playerbase to accomodate new players. I’ve seen too many players quit after/before leaving valk or within 2x40. And I’ve helped a great deal of them, too.

I guess I’ll try to play my newbs more, except I do the mid-level eq on my main solo. So you are right that if an experienced player creates an alt or brings a friend, the new char doesn’t need to join eq groups.

As far as attitude towards newbie eq, with this amount of players, you ought to have avatars in a group to kill decent eq mobs, such as the swordwraith in MH or Fallon. So usually it is all restricted to following exp groups, hoping you get some eq from there (there isn’t much, and some people do complain, if we veer off to hit an eq mob during an exp run).

Practically, there’s nothing wrong in using your main to help your alts, the problem is, we don’t have the amount of players to accomodate people going solo or in a tight group of friends. If we had more players that’d group offvalk on their own, I’m sure the nocap issue wouldn’t be an issue at all, because these caps are unattainable without morting.

So, if I were an imm, I’d put more effort in acquiring new players, retaining existing ones and encouraging experienced players to play mid-level players.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t use their main to help their alts…I’m saying it’s not conducive for a 9x40 to drag his lev 20 friends all over lyme to breeze through mid-levs…it discourages new playerbase. Also I’m saying that mid-levs are pretty much only getting popped eq that are on exp runs, b/c once everyone gets high lev enough…no one wants to help mid-levs get equipped unless it helps them (which inevitably means they’ll only group with these mid-levs in xp groups). I’m not saying your high lev chars should play more with their mid-lev alts necessarily..I’m saying that if the high level chars choose not to…please spend a little time trying to help equip the new playerbase at mid-levs, even if that means it coming at GASP a slower xp per hour… and actually doing something off lyme. Only time I see people actually hitting mobs to help mid-levs equip are on nocap when they can benefit, which is pretty f’ing sad.

Most peeps got equipped through groups, now they want to leave everyone hanging.

Sometimes I wish they would just nerf Lyme into oblivion to actually guide people do other things, since they’re not doing it of their own accord.

-Zeke

Zek, I dont hate you, but I cannot agree completely with what you say.

“Decent” eq can be scavenged from stores nowadays, being little warrior Ozzy made -7 AC just by doing that and I believe decent AC for even 1x40 wa-prime, since -10 at 3x40 was standart de-facto back in S3, and I hit -11 only recently and only with Iron Skin, its 22 Av and quite long trip. More hurt to this aspect comes from unfinished Newbie Acedemy - I created newb recently and still have complains about this part of game - there still is plenty of work left unfinished, and after ‘graduating’ newbs dont know what to do - adding 5x5 rooms square field at the end of Academy, filling those with twenty 500 exp ‘rats/kobolds/goblins’ mobs is so simple end efficient, why not to do?

About running lowbies on Lyme, why not if its possible and beneficial? Solution can be closing Lyme back for 3x40 only, but this restriction was removed, and I know that kind of changes come in effect after careful considerations.

About mid groups “problem”, and “groups problem” in general, few people willing to lead nowadays: can do solo/2man better, dont have enough game knowledge, dont want to take responsibility for others lives; no pleasure to run a bunch of afkers and lazy people why not bothering to debuff the mob; honestly I dont really know how to encourage ppl to lead groups other than increasing leadeship exp bonus, but imms sayin its already quite high, so…

About “someone running all Lyme for himself and his friends”. I know what you’re sayin’, it happened to me few times - player comes in area that “I run” and starts killing “my” mobs, I complain to imms and get clear explanation: no Rules forbidding doing that; we players can even engage mobs that other players currently fighting, its legal belive or not. Only thing why people don’t do that, is their moral ethical beliefs; you are free to do what you want, but be ready to face the consequences; some people ask and then leave seeing me inside certain area, some just ignore me and rush in (but fail to benefit coz I kill faster); I like how its done, just olde good American way, government does only what we the People cannot do ourselves, and we certainly can work out problems like that, either by respecting each others, or fight over (web, recall, sanc mobs, blind, silence, sleep, you choose) - but not PK directly, because its against the Rules. Not sure about indirect, though. See, I wasnt ‘protected’ by this unwritten rule, but I still respect it, because I can benefit from it some day somewhere.

Solution to this can be we all be friends, shake our hands and run exp together! Pretty challenging, isnt it? To step over ourselves, forget all fights past and move on :)

Woah, Eze, slow down. Let’s identify the issues you raised:

high level chars lead their friends around lyme for exp, letting them breeze through 1x40-3x40
high level chars don’t help newbies they don’t know with medium (1x40-3x40) eq
exp group leaders focus on exp, not eq
there are no eq groups that’d newbies could get their eq from
high level chars don’t kill off lyme.
First of all, at least a few times a week, there’s an exp group off-Lyme. It’s usually fargate exp and it’s great exp, better, than Lyme, according to a few 2man runs I did. So it doesn’t matter, where avatars have their friends get exp (1), on lyme or in exp groups. In fact, my groups are comprised mainly of avatars, so they do kill stuff off-lyme (5), so you are talking only about one particular avatar that doesn’t join us off-lyme.
Of course, avatars don’t cycle for eq for ppl they don’t know, unless it’s an eq group. And eq groups are even rarer, than exp groups, but there are a few of them. I agree that medium players can mostly hope that something comes up on the auction or armor shops.
As for exp groups, I try to hit mostly exp mobs, and if someone needs an eq item from an exp mob, I usually hit it too. And yet some people are offended by this, because I hit more mobs for myself, than others - mostly because I know what we are killing tonight and can spot an eq mob there. If someone had a passage at an exp mob that pops eq, such as a fire machine or the otyugh, I wouldn’t have a problem killing it and pissing off more people.
Yup, very few eq groups.
Like I said, people might solo on Lyme, but for group exp, they join the exp groups, not only because it allows for a fresh kill history, good exp, but also for gems - you can’t pop t3s solo.

So, what do we have left, then? Few eq groups.

So, the only thing that needs to be done is for people to run eq groups on and off-lyme. It doesn’t matter, whether avatars help their friends or not, newbies can join exp and eq groups, if there are any.

Coincidentally, this can be solved by getting more new and retaining existing players.

It’d help to have functional chop exp groups that’d bring exp, comparable to an offlyme group, so that there is:

more exp on Lyme, which is unaged/dead most of the time
more opportunities to pop eq that tri40s+ need
another way to make exp (variety brings fun and is less boring)

and it’d bring back the play style to life.

Also, as people get exp, they need new eq, which means there will be more eq groups.

Another thing.

Even if you do insist on making Lyme exp low enough to force people offlyme, it won’ get us anywhere. This reminds me the “forbid this, forbid that” approach that our govt has. It’s pretty silly, because it doesn’t solve any problems and because people will find a way around the limits. E.g., what this will change is that Surf that will not be named will have to drag his buddies around on SS, not Lyme.

Let us be honest, anyone with high-level friend can and will power-level their lowbie, because why not?

Yeah, says the Yasik who is the one that gets dragged around contributing to the new mid lev playerbase death. And Taron, yes..you lead xp…because it benefits you..and like I said…eq benefits no large tanks/healers that you need for eq groups (just try getting one together, you’ll see what i mean…everyone there for xp..you mention eq and they all disappear like farts in the wind)…they’d rather just be running xp…this means the mid levs are left in the cold for eq…or going to auction hoping that, of the few chars left in the game, someone happens to cycle something they want (not likely when everyone is running xp unless you happen to get a lucky vault clearing).

But keep on beating around the bush. And so what if the imms make changes to guide playerbase movement off Lyme? SOMETHING to at least try to retain some type of playerbase is better than nothing. When the players make no effort to work toward retaining the playerbase, even if that means sacrificing a little bit of xp per hour, something has to counterbalance to try to intervene to make them, otherwise the whole mud dies.

Yasik, did you get ALL of your mid lev eq yourself from shops…Oh you must be talking about heavy iron rings or diamond breast plate! (conveniently on xp run, shocker!) Grand webmistress, Iblis? Not on xp runs..out of luck. Hell, those two mobs cover 4 pieces needed alone. There’s plenty of eq pieces that require eq groups that are not on the ’exp train’ list. And certainly aren’t soloable and discourages new players when they’re told that it’s a pipe dream to hope for such eq.

Oh wait…you needed 13 black beltpouches..you’re in luck…there’s gold run trash in shops too, all of which is utterly valuable.

Also, why do you think I care what anyone runs on Lyme? This isn’t about me wanting more areas to blast as you insinuate. I’m not gonna fight other max avvies for areas…I could care less if who lives on Lyme or what they’re running. Anyone who knows me understands I couldn’t care less about my own ‘xp per hour’ and ‘power leveling.’ What I care about is the viability of the mud, and high lev chars dragging these lower chars away for mindless xp on Lyme, killing the new playerbase chance for grouping/integration in mid-levs as a side effect (which they used to not even be allowed on Lyme, and now we see for good reason).

We used to say, “Oh, 9x40- stay interested by starting a new char and you’ll rediscover a love for the game again.” This encouraged a community and interaction with new playerbase as well. Now it’s “Start a new char so you can sponge mindlessly and with little contribution on Lyme, isolating yourself til your ’new’ char can actually contribute…so you can camp Lyme even harder.

It’s a good thing I came to the mud before, when there was actually a community that looked out for one another as much as looking out for one’s self …if I came to this mud today…I assure you by mid-levs as a new char, I’d leave. In that position, a mid-lev wouldn’t have the experience grouping to do the quick Lyme runs (and would likely be shunned for lack of knowledge) and wouldn’t be able to gain the adequate knowledge/eq to be viable because the people I’m supposed to be grouping and learning the mud through are all on Lyme. Bummer.

Other suggestions:

-Make Lyme lev restricted again (to encourage players to..ya know..group with people more their level) There is no reason for a lev 20 to be running around Lyme anyway other than to beat the xp system and dodge other chars their level in the process. The 3x40 restr. was originally lifted so new players could also chop and integrate into that grouping system. Now, with chop almost non-existent, it’s having unseen side affect of abuse with newb/mid-lev speed sponging with little to no contribution to group. (Lightning bolt against lyme mobs- pew pew).

-Take away/severely scale back bonus xp on Lyme (for cont balancing reasons).

-Integrate an array of higher level elite eq so high lev chars actually have reason to spend time in eq groups.

Not saying we have to do all or any of these…just trying to get a dialogue going about a problem that everyone seems to want to say ‘it’s not bleeding THAT badly’ about…and then we’re dead.

[ pri sec ter qua qui hex sep oct ] Players

[ Sensei Mo:9.40 ] Ip the recalcitrant

[ Hierarch Cl:9.40 ] Zuzu ::LeMuRs:: thanks Josiah

[ Theurgist Ma:7.39 ] Ezekiel ~~Dragonsworn~~

[ 20c 20m 20n 10b| 6w 5d 4o 3t ] Whatta \ /

[ 20t 20w 6m 5c| 0 0 0 0 ] Marceline the Untitled

[ 20d 17c 0 0 | 0 0 0 0 ] Fandral the Fiery Feral Ferret

There are 6 visible players.

Highest total since last bootup: 24.

And that’s consistently. Need I say more?

Eze, I did try to get eq groups going, and like you said, it’s much harder to get them going, than exp groups.

It’s not impossible though, at least half of online players usually join an eq group, but it has to be a weekend or a Friday night.

Another reason why I don’t lead eq groups is that I can solo medium-sized mobs myself. I don’t need or want to drag 5 people around, spend time killing their mobs, only to kill the mob I can solo. As for large mobs, there often is not enough people for large mobs, such as Krimeah, Infernite queen, a full R’Lyeh run or the regal king, unless it’s a chop day. Even then, Infernite queen is chop-immune and Smaug isn’t easy to hit either.

So yet again, we come to the limit from a low playerbase.

Eze, there’s no logic in guiding the players offlyme. Imms had already nerfed chop, and it only moved groups off-Lyme. Newbies could join a chop exp train and help, now they can only join offlyme groups, where they don’t really help (heck, we had a fallout, when a 20ne got a rhodo).

Again, introducing any limits will not solve anything. Anyone running solo on their own or dragging their friends will do the same offlyme, you are simply moving them to another continent, Eze, without fixing the underlying problem. You can’t force the early 9x40s to group, because they’ve already got most of the runes, when gems popped like candies in chop groups (another reason why chop groups might bring the grouping back, btw).

Those same avatars can solo most mobs as well, so they don’t eq groups.

High level avatars do need something to do and complex forges, like Ars, scarab of destruction, the mithril shirt, the herbalist clasps are good examples of what’s needed for high-level chars for them to join eq groups. These items are 2x40 restricted, with clasps being 5x40. We need more 5x40+ forges, ideally at least one forge for every class for 6x40, 7x40, 8x40 and 9x40, so people could continue making progress after getting another 40 (so far, there’s little progress to be made by leveling 7x40, unless you put mage there, like I did).

(Making Ars 5x50 restricted, scarab 6x40 restricted and herbalist clasps 8x40 restricted won’t fix anything. Not to mention that the scarab has a 40th restriction, with most ppl having it in the 6-8 class area.)

Just adding these forges will bring the eq groups back, powered by high-level avatars.

You are right that it’s impossible to get good eq for new players. And when leaders do hit eq mobs on an exp run, people complain (usually, the same people). Heck, even the Surf, who shall not be named, left an exp group just before we were going to hit Iblis for the main tank (me, incidentally, and I wasn’t leading). When we hit Iblis for the 2nd and 3d time, because he actually popped, half the group left. So much for popping eq for tanks.

To be fair, when I lead exp groups, I only hit eq mobs that also have exp and are close to where we are running, and still get complaints. I do not hit eq mobs that are way out of the way, are low exp and there’s no beacon/passage, and still get complaints, because I didn’t. And if I do kill an eq mob, I hit it once, unless it’s for the main healer, such as Dr/Fluffy, because the group needs them as much as they need the main tank. (Btw, care to guess what or who drove them away?)

Taron, just so many things to refute from your post:

*1.“Another reason why I don’t lead eq groups is that I can solo medium-sized mobs myself. I don’t need or want to drag 5 people around, spend time killing their mobs, only to kill the mob I can solo.” *

This is a more subtle way of saying, “I benefitted from groups for my eq, but now don’t care about the new playerbase who need the same tools.”

Cutthroat capitalism tactics at it’s finest…use others to get ahead…then when those beneath you need the same hand up…accuse them of not knowing or doing enough, or being pesky or a burden to your time. So glad you get to enjoy the luxury from the top of your tower. You see, there was this thing called ‘community’ before on the mud…where ya know..people’s inadequacies were replaced with wanting them to learn and grow alongside you rather than cutting them out as a dead-weight, waste of time.

2. “Eze, there’s no logic in guiding the players offlyme. Imms had already nerfed chop, and it only moved groups off-Lyme. Newbies could join a chop exp train and help, now they can only join offlyme groups, where they don’t really help (heck, we had a fallout, when a 20ne got a rhodo).”

-Obviously this is not true about the newbs ‘only joining groups off lyme’ because as I numerous times previously stated…that is not what is happening…these low-mid levels are exclusively sponging on Lyme and contributing nothing. And you and maybe one other were the only one to have a fallout over that rhodo situation..almost the entirety of the mud thought it a null issue.

“Again, introducing any limits will not solve anything. Anyone running solo on their own or dragging their friends will do the same offlyme, you are simply moving them to another continent, Eze, without fixing the underlying problem. You can’t force the early 9x40s to group, because they’ve already got most of the runes, when gems popped like candies in chop groups (another reason why chop groups might bring the grouping back, btw).”

This, again, is false. 9x40 that speed run Lyme will not get the same yields personally dragging newbs and mid-levs around SS or AH, etc. This means that reinstating the 3x40 lev restr. would leave under 3x40 to either solo or form groups for xp off lyme while the above 3x40 can continue speed running Lyme. If everyone is always acting on self-interest, as you are implying…those running Lyme will not branch over to helps newbs and mid-lev friends run off-lyme because it’s going to hurt their own xp per hour…the speed runs are just too high yielding on Lyme to pass up time wise. They’ll just cut out the dragging and sponging of the newbs. If they do decide to move off Lyme to help newbs and mid-levs sponge they’ll have to at least have to do it at their own expense.

*“Those same avatars can solo most mobs as well, so they don’t eq groups.” *

-Agreed, bringing up third point

*3. “High level avatars do need something to do and complex forges, like Ars, scarab of destruction, the mithril shirt, the herbalist clasps are good examples of what’s needed for high-level chars for them to join eq groups. These items are 2x40 restricted, with clasps being 5x40. We need more 5x40+ forges, ideally at least one forge for every class for 6x40, 7x40, 8x40 and 9x40, so people could continue making progress after getting another 40 (so far, there’s little progress to be made by leveling 7x40, unless you put mage there, like I did).

also, agreed

"(Making Ars 5x50 restricted, scarab 6x40 restricted and herbalist clasps 8x40 restricted won’t fix anything. Not to mention that the scarab has a 40th restriction, with most ppl having it in the 6-8 class area.)

-I never said anything about changing restr. on eq…in fact, I’m stating just the opposite. Shifting restr. on in-game eq does nothing to get people back to hitting any eq mobs, because the high level chars ALREADY HAVE THE EQ. I was suggesting that more brand new, high end pieces/forges be put in to make it worthwhile to branch out and not be a zombie to xp all day, every day.

“4. You are right that it’s impossible to get good eq for new players. And when leaders do hit eq mobs on an exp run, people complain (usually, the same people). Heck, even the Surf, who shall not be named, left an exp group just before we were going to hit Iblis for the main tank (me, incidentally, and I wasn’t leading). When we hit Iblis for the 2nd and 3d time, because he actually popped, half the group left. So much for popping eq for tanks.”

Yes, you know, healers and tanks never get the breaks…it’s not like we give them leeway or anything for calls hitting their extra eq mobs in xp groups. rolls eyes Please sense the sarcasm, as tanks and manabag healers are about the only ones to be able to cycle/call/meander to hit eq mobs in such groups…anyone else gets shushed or laughed at because they’re not of the same value. Poor you…you didn’t get to cycle iblis more than once for your eq in an xp group.

*“To be fair, when I lead exp groups, I only hit eq mobs that also have exp and are close to where we are running, and still get complaints.”

-Agreed, you hit mobs like archfiend, for instance. Great mob, double pops eq, pretty easy xp, benefits everyone.

“I do not hit eq mobs that are way out of the way, are low exp and there’s no beacon/passage, and still get complaints, because I didn’t. “

-That comes from the frustration of chars never having eq groups again and hoping against hope that this month they ‘might’ get to hit their mobs once while in group…and that’s probably for one cp of 8. Wonder where that expectation to hit the mob may come from…maybe it’s from seeing Iblis hit in xp groups?

“And if I do kill an eq mob, I hit it once, unless it’s for the main healer, such as Dr/Fluffy, because the group needs them as much as they need the main tank. (Btw, care to guess what or who drove them away?)”

-Yes, they’re both in my clan and they both took breaks (weren’t “driven away”) for reasons having nothing to do with what we’re talking about here…i only talk to them on ktalk every time they log on…but I’m sure you’d know much more than me on the matter…continue to speculate as if you know some deep, dark secret though.

-Zeke

I do not understand how am I “contributing to the new mid lev playerbase death”.

I have no idea what is “mid level players’ problem”, and why you are only one aware and concerned about it.

Maybe you mean the bonus that we start to receive after 3x40, but it isnt that big to actually be a problem without.

Nowadays, it is much, much easier than ever to get exp: time bonuses, 3x40 bonus, nocap, properly abused kill history, and yes, exp groups happen, not every day - but we can grind coins meanwhile or do the quests, so I see the system pretty much OK from my tower.

You are contributing by this, as previously mentioned..by being dragged around Lyme all day by a 9x40 and thinking nothing of it, you are: preventing other true newb/mid-levs from partcipating in groups off Lyme when they need experienced players of similar level to run along side with/learn the ins and outs of grouping/cycle eq so they can become half decent. Keep looking out for yourself though.

And to say I am the only one who is concerned…it’s because most of those i’m defending that are affected don’t voice concerns publicly…they’re too new and afraid/intimidated to…they just leave and find a more welcoming place to mud. Of course, you would know this if you actually related or ran with any of the chars I talked about instead of treating them like lepers and rather spending time on Lyme being dragged. Instead, you think the problem doesn’t exist because you distance yourself far enough away to be able to most insincerely claim obliviousness.

Congrats…you get to protect your status quo with 6 ppl log ons and 24 highs in 9 days uptime, most of which are dominated with a 9x40 exploiting lyme with 3 veterans’ newbs tagging along, discouraging any rising new playerbase.

Last I spoke to you on this issue you said ‘well, it’s legal’. That’s the trademark words of someone scamming the system and being unethical…and knowing it. I’m pretty sure this forum is here to point out things like that to make suggestions that unethical actions that have detrimental effects on the new playerbase be made ‘illegal.’

Have a nice day in your tower.

-Ezekiel

So, am I guilty by doing my own business and by doing that I dont babysit others and they suffer from it, did I get it right?

I think it would be more honest if everybody have their own motivations and ambitions in the first place, instead of having/expecting anyone else to come, teach, lead, give eq, and so on. No socialist, no commies, sorry.

Somehow I dragged myself to level I am at this moment, and somehow I got my eq; this means it is doable for anybody else. Just start doing it yourself, and help will come, eventually - as it came to me. Keep doing things and dont wait for somebody to come and make you 9x40 in endgame eq by fingers snap.

Wrong, it’s not doable for everyone else if you got yours by a benefactory nature of eq groups and the like, but you’re not willing to extend the same…all is not equal in that equation.I like how you just glossed over those details and stuck to generalities. That’s the sign of a weakly backed argument. What if those other veteran alt mid-levs had left you in the dust for mid-lev grouping and eq, and were able to just have their friends drag them around Lyme while you stagntated in many more ways because of it?

Funny, you would have raved about the great ‘community’ when you needed the eq… or people to run with that were your level that were a bit more experienced to show you the ropes. Now you call it ‘socialism’ and want capitalism because it benefits you and you don’t want to waste your time running alongside the lowbies. Hypocrite.

Not asking a whole lot here…just asking for you to extend the same kindnesses that were extended to you..you’re trying to spin it to make it sound like charity. Jeez, come off your pedestal.

Your type of attitude will be the death of this mud. Looks like the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

No you’re wrong, I scavenged most of my eq from stores and from auctions, because somebody somewhere pops something they dont need, someday; they then put it on auction and I buy. Everybody can do that, it a nobrainer.

We cannot just give free eq and levels to players, because players will not see any value in it, because they did not put any effort to gain it. And as I said, many good mid-level eq can be just picked up from the ground, just need to bend and take.

I am willing and able to join eq-groups or even 2man if somebody asks, but I will not roam the mud seeking players who needs something then pop it for them, its impossible since everybody always need something. But I am always there to join, often even if I dont need anything personally, and it happened many times - you just wasnt the one to vitness it.

Regarding me killing this game, its just too emotional and cant withstand even a little bit of logic.

PS. I personally consider “mid-game” starts from 4x40. Below that is lowbies and really nothing to do just to gain muscle.

All of our actions make or break the mud as a whole…we make it what it is..so yeah..it is completely logical to assail those that are gaming the system to make new playerbase feel isolated for their own benefit.

Yeah, let me just grab mid-lev eq…riiight…there are NO people cycling eq mobs..all xp. All the shop eq is from xp runs or gold runs. More than ever, with a depeleted regular playerbase, they do need a hand to stick around, they may need our help hitting equipment…because, where we had a lot more in shops and actual eq groups and economy…they have none.

This standard of ‘just grabbing mid-lev eq’ you speak of…that’s a pipe dream that used to exist. I can’t believe you’re really this disconnected from what’s actually going on…or maybe that shouldn’t surprise me, as you’re clearly of the aforementioned mentality, “I’ve got mine- get yours or quit/die and get out of my way” when the circumstances are wholly different. That is what is making your argument hypocritical.

You arent serious, are you? Tell what this thread is about, without scrolling to 1st page.

Not going to argue, see me ingame if you need me.

This is about same topic that I’ve been mentioning whole time…since my first extended post to Taron here…

Do you need help reading?…from nearly my first post:

*“No, I’m saying any newb limits should remain because it’s bad enough:

You have all lev 20 valkers then all 4x40-9x40 avatars…why?

Because people run their veteran friends’ newb-level alts all over lyme and get them on par.
This limits grouping through mid levs, a time when true newbs actually need the support of those chars to…ya know…actually learn the structure of sloth groups within eq/xp, learn the ropes, mutually gain through the mud…rather than be left in the cold by those being isolationist and elitist on lyme with their small cadre of old-timers dragging them around.

This leads to new players quitting at mid levs.”*

Have stayed on that topic since. Nice evasion tactics though.

But then again, I guess ‘it’s legal’ sums it all up from your end.

I think this thread was made to just your steam out, and not to resolve a problem you describing, if it exists at all. I’m not sure why I continue to

Leadership bonus is high enough, at exp bonus day, if leader is tank at the same time, with good group, can be ridiculously big.

Only way to make people lead - is to make them want to lead.

Everybody wants to maximize their character’s power, by levels and eq.

If you say that existing leadership exp bonus is not enough, and increasing it even further is not considered as an option by imms, then possible solution is to introduce another “points” system along with exp, honor, and drachma, and make special store where leaders can buy special eq in exchange for their hard earned leadership points. Something tells me I know what will be imms’ answer to this idea.

The game as it is today - is much easier than it was before. Making it even more easier, when less efforts give more reward, is bad idea, because it removes challenge.

Much easier for who? I assure you the new playerbase mid-levs that just want to group and learn xp/eq/mud tactics from those close in lev to themselves… they leave in droves while vets are sponging with their newb/mid-lev alts on Lyme…thoe that leave wouldn’t say that the game is ’easier’ for them….

Again..look at the who list..proof is in the pudding…

[ pri sec ter qua qui hex sep oct ] Players

[ Overlord Wa:9.40 ] Linx …

[ Overlord Wa:9.40 ] Josiah

[ Champion Wa:8.28 ] Taron join chat: http://telegram.me/slothmud

[ Theurgist Ma:7.39 ] Ezekiel ~~Dragonsworn~~

[ Enchanter Ma:7.32 ] Elendai is searching for chunk of titanium

[ Hierophant Cl:5.32 ] Prescience … thanks Josiah!

[ Pilgrim Mo:4.29 ] Sledgehammer [Legends] Needs Santity, Mstrike, GLloyds

[ Scoundrel Th:4.28 ] Risky ~~Dragonsworn~~ wtb Sardonyx

[ 34t 26c 21w 11m|10b 8d 6n 5o ] Sadnama

[ 20o 20b 20w 20c|20t 20m 17n 20d ] Itami Hai Karate

[ 20w 20o 20m 20n|20c 20d 20b 19t ] Yasik http://tinyurl.com/hqcyypr

[ 20c 20m 20n 10b| 6w 5d 4o 3t ] Whatta \ /

[ 20n 20c 11m 2d| 3w 0 0 0 ] Zorn is hunting on BH

[ 20d 17c 0 0 | 0 0 0 0 ] Fandral the Fiery Feral Ferret

[ 14d 12t 10m 8w| 6b 4o 2c 1n ] Unmace is slowly growing in afk.

[ 13d 4c 3t 0 | 0 0 0 0 ] Zabibu the Untitled

There are 16 visible players.

Highest total since last bootup: 24.

Usually 0 or maybe 1 character between the lev of 20 - 3x40 or 4x40

Easier for everyone.

If you want to help them - why dont YOU lead exp?

What you consider “mid level”?

I as Ozzy was pretty much able to level up soloing at rate I consider acceptable. Groups just speed that up.

If you say that I am guilty for not leading/teaching others, then this is becoming utter bullshit. I owe noone anything that you mention, and I have my own goals.

2x40 is character that maximized their killing potential to like 75%.

Players must have their own internal motivations. If you want to walk them by hand to 9x40 - go on, do so, but dont tell me to do it for you because you think its right thing to do.

Not being lazy is enough. Using every legal opportunity is ok.

I help people not only as newbs, but also through mid-levs, while I help them more as newbs I show them areas to hit, I show them how to use website, familiarize them with commands and tactics…if they ask for help at mid-levs I try to make them hit mob first solo…even die to it often, before I go two man it…often times I will group with them after to help 2 man up some eq, as it takes real vulnerability and a willingness to learn to take that leap and challenge yourself. Just ask the few mid-levs around or the 20’s for sure.
I’m not saying you have to lead xp…I AM saying it’s selfish and counter-intuitive to get dragged all around Lyme on a newb/mid-lev while watching the actual new playerbase have less and less people to actually help them develop into experienced players b/c all the chars their lev are on Lyme. It’s pretty simple actually. You just keep restating it in ways to deflect from taking responsibility, but no such chance.

Eze, I need eq on mobs that are hard or impossible for me to solo, but I don’t hit them, because it’s hard to get an eq group going, so I focus on the smaller stuff that I can solo.

And yes, I can solo mobs that are 5-20mil sized easily (which is far smaller, than 9x40 can solo easily, actually). I don’t see a problem with not leading a group for small mobs. I mean, do I have to lead a group to kill a 20mil mob?

You can’t reasonably expect ppl to join groups, when they don’t need eq. I mean, it can happen once in a while, but not most of the time.

9x40 avatars have their own motivation and you can’t blame them for not needing the eq they already have. It’s simple logic. Like we agreed on, avatars need new complex forges to be interested to run/join eq groups.

I guess we shouldn’t hit eq mobs in exp groups, so people would actually run eq groups or suffer and quit.

Thoughts?

I referred to you mentioning nerfing Lyme exp, which would bring avatars offlyme. Otherwise, you are correct: if you only limit lyme to 1x40, then avatars will stay on Lyme and/or mort their friends to 1x40.

However, there’s only one avatar that’s leading his buddies around. I may be the next one, who knows. But this practice isn’t wide-spread as you make it out to be. Though, in our scale, that Lyme group is sometimes 30% of the mud online population.

So it seems like you picked the wrong target here, rather, a point where the problem shines, but it’s not the problem.

The problem you describe is a symptom of low population and little endgame for 9x40s:

few groups
fewer eq groups
low amount of rare eq on the auction - also because there are few buyers
no experienced players leading low level groups, because there’s no one to follow or lead.

Perhaps, in addition to creating 9x40 forges, there needs to be a wider program for 9x40’s alts, so they could play and group offlyme. But again, this looks like a patch towards a bigger problem: low mud population.

And it’s low not because MUDs are being replaced by MMORPGs: Aardwolf has 200+ online, there’s at least some demand for text-based games

Again, I’ve come to the same conclusions as I or we did earlier:

we need more 5-9x40 high end eq and forges. And eq has to be useful. Check out the black demon-skin bracer, -0.5 -dam reduction +max str arms on a 300mil mob. Who would use them? I was tempted to get it only because I thought it was a wristwear for some reason.
we need to treat the MUD as a product and:

actively promote it, not hope that “they will come”
work on keeping current players by adding useful high-end eq, game mechanics, areas and maybe more
maybe encourage 9x40s play their remorts or alts
making things easier: finished quest info (being worked on), identify in auctions, gem trading section
actively ask for feedback on what the players need, prioritize them, based on demand/resources needed, and do what the players really need

The latter can be done in a form of an open-ended, rated list of suggestions. If we were able to rate threads in the suggestion subforum, imms would’ve been able to see, what players really need, based on feedback, not just internal analytics and guessing.

Taron,

+1 for your last response, well thought out.

Only thing I disagree with…

*2. I guess we shouldn’t hit eq mobs in exp groups, so people would actually run eq groups or suffer and quit.

Thoughts?*

I wasn’t saying you should or shouldn’t…as a leader that’s your right..as a follower, that’s up to the leader to bend to the will of the chars if they want to meander to hit an eq mob (which usually is at the cost of the group xp per hour slightly…and sometimes not so slightly). I was just stating that tanks and healers usually get that break more. Then, when new chars see it happen for a tank or cleric and don’t understand the leeway given and ask for a mob and the leader says ’this is xp, it’s not on the run’….they can feel pretty dejected or pretty worthless to the group at the very least. So it’s not only you who’s in the catch 22…

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post.

Note: Still personally think it’s selfish to run on Lyme with a 20 lev…it just is..there’s no beating around the bush there. End game, no end game, challenge..don’t care…it’s non-productive to have level 20’s speed leving on Lyme. There is no rhyme or reason for allowing it to be legal.

Cheers,

Ezekiel

Eze, I do remember following the great people to the MH.

It was fun, contributing to a kill of a swordwraith, get good exp. Only for the leader to pass eq to the tank, his buddies or higher levels. You could feel like you were no one and you had to grow to get a chance to get eq.

And yes, it was frustrating and I can’t say it was that unfair: people do act better towards people they know and the items used to go to people that could use them. And yet, we have it better with the wheel these days.

Also, what you described as “not on the run, it’s exp”, is precisely what happened in my groups and because at least one person is annoyed at this and now does the same remarks, when I consider hitting eq for others.

Maybe people shouldn’t expect to get eq from exp groups? But it can only be done, if leaders don’t hit eq, while on an exp run.

Or we need to hit all eq calls in an exp group. Or make people refine their choices.

(Wow, did we get offtopic in this thread)

As for avatars leading newbies on Lyme..it’s kind of an easy way for them to group. How else would they group? What if the tard doesn’t have a remort and isn’t interested in playing his alts?

If you ban noobs from Lyme, then, if tard prefers his buddy to exp/hr, then he’ll take him to other conts doing the very same thing. Why and how stopping this will fix the game? Why would the smaller buddy prefer a group with new players to following his friend?

I just don’t see an easy solution to this one, other than encouraging tards to play their remorts, maybe by significantly upping exp or gem pop rate for chars that match the area level (eg, 1-3x40 in Ogres).

P.S. For the record, limiting levels of people, who can group together, is severely limiting towards the amount of groups. I saw this in Aardwolf, when there are several people of different levels, who are seeking for a group, and they can’t, because they only group within 3 levels (at the scale of 40 max levels) of each other.

“*As for avatars leading newbies on Lyme..it’s kind of an easy way for them to group. How else would they group? What if the tard doesn’t have a remort and isn’t interested in playing his alts?

That was a very weakly attempted justification for something that should very clearly be reversed. I don’t even really think you believe it, but rather know you’ll be running your newb soon.

Pleeassse…first part…there were 3x40 restrictions before..if an avatar wants to group on Lyme..he can 2-3 man with other 3x40 to 9x40 or run it solo (if you can’t run it solo, learn…Lyme was supposed to be an elitely run continent in it’s build and if you can’t learn to run at least chunks of it solo, you probably don’t belong there)…most of them are fine soloing the quick stab/grip/blast areas anyway. Hell, that’s what Surf was doing before he started dragging people. It’s also pretty easy to find another high lev char willing to cycle with you for some on the quickest xp/hr on mud, so let’s not pretend it’s not been this way. Also, the lev 20’s aren’t contributing shit anyway against Lyme mobs with their lightning bolts…so don’t act like it’s necessary….it’s simply scamming xp to newbs.

You’re distinctly wrong about the second part. As I said before, product of making Lyme 3x40 again: the 9x40 chars that are dragging their friends would not sacrifice their xp/hr from Lyme to go help their friends sponge for much less personal yield on SS/AH…they would tell the newbs to just go level somewhere else and the 9x40 would stay cycling for their hell-bent 10th damage point on Lyme (just like it used to be). The only reason these 9x40 are dragging their newb friends is because they’re already running the areas anyway (they are not running it ‘with the intent to help newbs’ as you are correlating) and they’re exploiting the fact that we allowed newbies on to Lyme to chop way back in the day so as not to isolate them. It’s now having the opposite effect. Even if 9x40’s did decide to run their newb friends around SS/AH, they’d have to then do it at a cost to their xp/hour…which it should be.

These veteran lowbie/mid-lev chars that run alts then would have to be off lyme for their xp…this encourages more small groups to form off lyme for other non-veteran players having newbie/lowbie/mid-levs to join. Even if it was only an incremental rise in groups, it can’t be worse than the current system of ‘have’ and ‘have-not’s, with the new playerbase just feeling left isolated.

When I said “they group”, I meant the tard and his buddies. Not avatars. I know avatars can solo the entire Lyme, if they want to. Why would anyone think otherwise?
My opinion is that 3x20s contribute on Lyme proportionally to their levels. They have 300ma of cure serious, which is more, than a peri. Also, they can use a velvet wand, a lamb or call for help (or get their main). I’ve saved Surf about x2-3 of exp, of what he got my bard, this way.

The only exception is 8x20 chars, who have twice more levels with the same power. And 8x20 are exceptions, not the rule.

Which brings another point:

You only analyze one avatar, who drags his buddies, and it’s Surf. Therefore, you apply your assumptions about him to other players. Yet, you apply the restrictions you want to apply to Surfnazi to other players, including me.

You are right that I might lead a newbie around lyme, either a friend or follow someone else in a remort. But first, I’d check, if we can do better exp 2man on other conts with my alts, just because my alts don’t have 350 levels on them. And I’d prefer to group with my buddy on/offlyme, rather than get an extra mil/hr. I think Dr would’ve done the same. Which, I guess, only works for you, because you’d get twice more players grouping offlyme.

But guess what. If you want me or my buddy leave Lyme, I’ll come with him and I won’t invite others in. I’d rather get more exp for my buddy, so he could get to Lyme, rather than take on more ppl. You can object this as much as you want, but I bet you love tight 2-3 man groups more, than huge 10+ groups, when it comes to grouping with your friends.

However, he doesn’t have time for groups now, so this is a not issue for me. Dr and Tembikai don’t play any more. Back to point 3.

I don’t like that you say who I should group with. It’s my decision and just forcing my hand in this sucks.

Imposing any limits instead of providing a constructive critique and improvement doesn’t lead to anything.

I’ll allow myself to quote Abraham Lincoln, I mean, Neptune from an email:

Neptune wrote: The important thing here is to not allow ourselves
to be victim to supposition and misinformation. We are always looking
for ways to encourage player growth, and welcome ideas. But as history
has shown, we cannot, more often than not, promote addition by subtraction.

You suppose too much and want to apply a general rule in a unique case. It shouldn’t be done this way.

Though I agree that we need more mid-level groups and I’ve already suggested my ways to fix this.

When you say that tards hit Lyme regardless and will not move elsewhere, it is just a guess or a more precise estimate of what would Surf would do. How do you know others will do the same, when there’s no one else leading newbies on Lyme? Again, go to 3.

Also, even if you push experienced players in alts offLyme, you assume they’d lead or join groups. What makes you think so? Up until 1x40 or so, solo exp is great. 1x40-3x40 exp is great in 2-3man and I’m not sure I’d let just about anyone to follow me on my exp runs. As for large groups, they exist regardless of Lyme, unless chop exp exceeds offlyme exp with bonuses.

You said:

Ezekiel wrote: the fact that we allowed newbies on to Lyme to chop way back in the day so as not to isolate them. It’s now having the opposite effect. Even if 9x40’s did decide to run their newb friends around SS/AH, they’d have to then do it at a cost to their xp/hour…which it should be.

But they do run on lyme, so it did allow people to group on Lyme regardless of character level. It works, just not how you like it. But it works.

In fact, unknown newbies can’t join Lyme exp groups is because there are no chop groups, since chop was nerfed. Not because one avatar wants to let others tag buddies around.

Also, there are no Lyme groups, since most exp is solo, and DoT and Mystica require a good number of avatars and a dashing leader. Sadly, I don’t know DoT well enough and Mystica needs even more avatars to survive ambushing mobs that hit -700hps/round.

Again, there are issues, but mostly because:

we need to bring chop back and make it as good as exp off-Lyme w/o exp bonuses.
an incentive, not just remorts, for tards to play their alts
we need complex 5x40+ forges
we need more players
we need high-end content for 9x40 avatars (I heard the Spire was made for them, but I don’t see them rushing into it. Why?), so they’d stick to Lyme and keep grouping/playing

I sorted the above by how easy it is to do them.

Since we are just getting repetitive with this thread…I’ll restate my points of disagreement, then done with this:

High lev avatars aren’t gonna move off Lyme to drag your newb for xp if they lev restrict it…you act like ‘I don’t know what avatars would do’….yes, i do, it’s called pattern and history. There is such a thing to base predictions and actions upon. That’s kind of how the world works and even how new changes are made on this mud (which is why this thread is going). They are only dragging peeps there now because, as I’ve said many times, they’re already running the areas.
To think that this is a vendetta against Surf is laughable. It is not only directed at him, it’s directed at any char that is exploiting this. I didn’t like when Dr did it, and it doesn’t matter who does it…it’s just wrong on principle to say that a x20 is running in such high level areas for the amount they’re contributing, while neglecting other characters their own level off lyme. I bring it up now because it happens quite often with Surf…much moreso than I’ve ever seen one char run newbs on Lyme. This makes a system of elitism where true new lowbies and mid-levs have no one their level that is experienced to group with, so disinterest sets in.
Cure serious? Really? Give me a break. That’s just a poor justification for wanting to continually run your newb there. The amount of xp gained to what you’re actually providing as a x20 on Lyme…not even close.
You said “I don’t like that you say who I should group with. It’s my decision and just forcing my hand in this sucks.”

I’m not telling you who to group with at all. I’m trying to encourage the imms to do something about a lev restriction issue that is allowing newbs to scam xp on Lyme that hurts new players. I’m just asking for a reinstating of a system that used to exist because people are taking advantage of it and it’s hurting a subsect of the new playerbase, one that we’re supposed to be direly concerned about. I’m not saying “You can’t group with Surf.” I’m saying “Hey, management, there is a problem on this cont which is hurting the new playerbase.” You’re the one that’s reading more into it. The fact that you are- shows the true amount of time people spend dragging the newbs on Lyme.

You said…

“Also, even if you push experienced players in alts offLyme, you assume they’d lead or join groups. What makes you think so? Up until 1x40 or so, solo exp is great. 1x40-3x40 exp is great in 2-3man and I’m not sure I’d let just about anyone to follow me on my exp runs. As for large groups, they exist regardless of Lyme, unless chop exp exceeds offlyme exp with bonuses.”

1-3x40 is great 2-3 man off lyme, yes. But you’re not gonna get the experienced chars wanting to run it instead of Lyme for 2-3 man…they’ll just stick to Lyme for their xp. No high avatar’s gonna tag along on a shadow keep run with you. This will inevitably encourage those under 3x40 to find a 2-3 man partnership with those off lyme, even if this means, gasp you have to group with someone maybe a little less experienced. Of course, your other option would be to solo, likely at a slower rate.

You said…

“But they do run on lyme, so it did allow people to group on Lyme regardless of character level. It works, just not how you like it. But it works.”

Intent behind changes does actually mean something. When a large change like taking a lev restriction off an elite continent produces a result that ends up hurting the new playerbase trying to acclimate (the opposite of it’s intent), it likely should be reversed. It only “works”, as you say, for you and the other veteran players taking advantage of it on their alts, while not caring about the extraneous side effects. The intent was good for the time, but when the results change…the ends do not justify the means in this case. Just because veteran newbs are moving to lyme, it’s not helping new people acclimate…it’s actually cutting those people out of grouping with others their level.

I’m not encouraging change for the sake of change. I’m encouraging it because I’m thinking of all aspects of the playerbase, not just my newb that I’m defending choices for.

You said Neptune said:

“The important thing here is to not allow ourselves

to be victim to supposition and misinformation. We are always looking

for ways to encourage player growth, and welcome ideas. But as history

has shown, we cannot, more often than not, promote addition by subtraction.”

…but we are currently promoting addition by subtraction…to not put lev restricts on Lyme is subtracting the number of experienced alt chars off-Lyme that could stregthen the new playerbase. These disheartened new chars then end up leaving the after they get off valk. By leaving this scam of an aspect in place, you are subtracting from the new playerbase and the possible strength these new chars could provide once they become vets. We made an addition that, on its implementation, first led to addition, but now leads to subtraction. Putting restricts back on would then simply be promoting addition, of course, in my view.

We have been going in circles for a while on this topic. This will be my last post on it, since we just have two different perspectives on it and how it should be addressed.

Peace,

Ezekiel

You really expect someon to read your long twaddle?

Just a quick question: what if imms reinstate chop, make it slightly less exp, than offlyme, and keep no-restricts on Lyme? Wouldn’t that promote groups on Lyme that’d require newbies to chop more limbs and pop more gems?