The new classes are overpowered.

That all said my opinions on where classo strengths are 'wrong' are as follows:

Warrior needs some more -AC bonus, perhaps a -ac skill equivalent to iron skin at around level 35-40

Necromancer jujus are still just far too overpowered in comparison to other pets. I know the jujus sometimes steal the xp from the kills and they've already be de-powered blah blah blah, but they are just still too good for eq / gold harvesting.

Mage has no pets to speak of ... charm person and familiar are useful but not really fighting, there was some talk some time ago of mage golems equivalent to jujus but couldn't be used in conjunction with them.

Bards don't seem to actually have a great deal to me thats at all useful ... nice gods of war/lion at fairly low levels, and I'm sure I'll love charm of sidhe in a few levels but I don't understand why no-ones crying out for bard to be buffed up ... perhaps my lack of undestanding though.

(Bear in mind I'm prejudiced by being a Wa/Ma/Cl/Ba and get narked at lower level Ne+juju combos that walk into an area I'm patiently cycling and kill everything before they have chance to notice I'm there) 

All of this just food for thought, personal opinion etc.

Elsie

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12695" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-05-25T16:20:52+00:00" data-subject="clerics">

That's a good point...err, 12345.  I forget what your name is, heh!  Anyway, that was exactly Splork's point.  Cleric makes a great support class.  On the other hand, send Bell into that area alone and see how she does against a 20 mil mob.  Or, since that was 2 man you could see how she does against a 10 mil mob.  If she's a 40 prime cleric, you might as well see how she does against a 1 mil mob.  The results will likely be the same.

Noone denies that cleric is a great support class, either in part of a classo or as part of a group.

I don't really like the idea of using heal spells to damage evil/undead/negative energy creatures.  Typically, people will just assign the normal points that would be healed as damage to the creature.  That would mean a heal spell inflicts 100 points of damage, but it's 42 mana.  That's an expensive blast for not so much damage.  Later, even with 350 hp restores you're spending enough mana for 2 and a half winds on that restore.

It would be interesting to have more supps that are useful during groups.  We all know (and love!) the chan chu, but some other group supp options would be a welcome addition.

Weasel, cleric primes do get a certain bonus to heals.  The 3 spells heal, gheal, restore all cost a few points less mana.  Restore costs 59 mana instead of 62.  I don't remember for sure, but heal is a point or two cheaper.  The bonus to raising is some amount of xp for the cleric if a cleric-prime raises someone.  I think the theory was that its a fraction of the xp carried by the character being raised.  I don't know what to say, it's a nice touch.  It's not a whole lot of xps, but it would add up over time.  During a quest like last night's, it probably added up rather quickly  :)

Regarding using evil supps, I agree that they are more useful during a fight.  Again, the real problem with supps is the alignment system.  Clerics get a bonus for fighting certain types of mobs...dark dreams can be nice if you hit hard and carry a big stick...err mace, which procs nicely against evil mobs.  Also, you can dispel evil and turn undead there, if you don't have a high str or a bunch of attacks.  If you cycle there, though, or if you fight vs any evil mobs then you can't use the evil supps - at least not for long.  It's odd that an evil character that goes on a killing spree might become angelic for causing that bloodbath.  The two useful abilities that an actual clerics gets (dark mace / evil supps) work against each other.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12696" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-05-25T16:31:53+00:00" data-subject="">

[quote:39mwknb4]hmmm, good point made by a lot of you but there seems to be an assumption you've all made that I'm not sure holds true. 

That all classes should be of equal or equivalent power. 

[/quote:39mwknb4]

I don't think that's really the point.  Noone expects clerics to be able to solo like a Th/Ma or like a Ne/Mo.  The scary thing is when you want to be a healer and you're better off choosing dr/cl rather than cl prime.

I guess the test would be to see if clerics make up 1/8 of the active community.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12697" data-author="brand" data-date="2006-05-25T16:55:56+00:00" data-subject="">

how about a thing such as...

darkshield

that maybe has damage reduction attached to it.

and ac of course

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12698" data-author="Zing" data-date="2006-05-25T17:12:47+00:00" data-subject="Prime only abilities">

Thief primes should have a reasonable chance at stealing from mobs.  A unique talent for thieves.

Clerics primes should be the only class with restore.  A unique spell only for primary healers.

A new piece of cleric prime eq would also be nice.  Maybe something like the "Staff of Hermes" or a different item with a caduceus  on it.  The effect might be that aggro mobs aren't aggro  if you are wearing or holding the sign of the cleric prime healer.  Like a flag of truce.  It would be useful for ambulance type work as well helping with scouting.

Zing - Cleric Prime (totally unbiased :)

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12699" data-author="Krok" data-date="2006-05-25T17:21:49+00:00" data-subject="">

Hi, guys, I'm finally back and happy to see that clerics are flaming :)

Ok. So I have a 5x40 cleric. My 2 cents are:

- I have 88 heal bonus with all ingame eq (cap is 90), so I don't know why people are bying drachma heal eq or why do they want more regular heal eq.

- as an attuned 5x40 I have 430 hp restores, and that's enough for healing in a group, but I really liked an idea to make our self-heals a lil bit bigger :)

- to be honest, clerics receive the real power only at 5x40 when they finally get the cute pit fiend, but that's only about the old classos, who are really under-powered compared with something rocking like cl/dr/ne/ba. So what I want to see is more supplicates, or additional supp's powers for cl primes. Some supps that could be useful for groups, if you consider cleric a support char. Maybe a supp who would rarely heal all group-members for 100 hps or so - nice additional chance to avoid a CF, etc. 

- and about old school cleric primes. We have little mana compared to the new classes, so the ideas about some cleric prime eq is nice, I'd say we need some basic regen eq, but with a lil bit more mana. Dskin +2-3 mana, additional mana on neck regen items and so on. That can make up for the lack of regen and mana and help us to heal in groups.

- flame off, but I still think that everyone can be a nice soloer, that doesn't really depend on a classo, but on your brains.  But yes, I have to agree, that clerics are not the best option to solo.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12700" data-author="Elsie" data-date="2006-05-25T17:22:54+00:00" data-subject="">

new cleric skill idea:

Devotion:

As the cleric makes kills of either good or evil aligned mobs his devotion increases, if he starts killing e.g. evil mobs for each evil kill devotion goes up if he then kills a neutral or good mob devotion resets to zero.

Devotion once reached a certain level (needs to take a lot of effort to get there say 1500sac points worth) can be traded in for an act of god ... similar to mages fortune (but always good?) or perhaps traded for a mana regen / whole area heal, i.e. all of a groups mana & hp restored (perhaps thats a bit too much? or too groupee orientated) perhaps could be traded for some other power up that would make him solo strong for a limited time.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12701" data-author="Guinex" data-date="2006-05-25T17:32:44+00:00" data-subject="">

Correct me if im wrong, but all ive gotten out of this thread is that old classo chars suck in comparison to new classos.  I think the resolution is make a new character.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12702" data-author="12345" data-date="2006-05-25T17:33:52+00:00" data-subject="">

Actually, going over this, a few things have come to mind.  For starters, was Charles' point about the heals causing a damned fortune to blast with.  However, there's no such thing as a full restore spell or a full life spell.  I'm not sure how clerics managed to avoid getting a prime healing ability?!?  Aerial servant and dark mace are great, but really really don't fit the class much.  Example:

Demi-Restore: Restores half the hit points of the target.

Now you have a spell!  Not only can it be used as a unique heal in groups that outweighs Druid and other primes, it can be used to shaft down undead as a attack effect.  Cast once, mob takes xxx damage, or, if it fails save, loses half it's remaining hps (this will need a cap, of course).  A couple casts and you can chop down some undead for fun and profit.  No different really than the Warriors weak +hit mobs, the thieves weak hp mobs or the mage ethers.

Suddenly, you have solo options and something that makes you stand out in groups.  And just like everyone else, you have areas that you can do well in for xp and coins and areas that get killed in.

BTW Charles: killing a 10 mil mob is rough for me as well since I don't have any blasting (Bit).  She likes the catacombs despite the fact she's far outgrown them.  I don't know Dark Dreams enough to really know if it's a good area for her to solo, or at what levels.  At this point, I'm just trying to come up with suggestions that won't be immediately dismissed as complete overpower.  Still not sure what to do about the old school types who are stuck with warrior and thief though...

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12703" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-05-25T19:20:01+00:00" data-subject="Clerics">

Active discussion, I like it.

Zing - if we get new cleric-style items I'd try to avoid using the weapon slot.  Dark mace is nice, anything else for that slot would conflict with using the mace.

Krok - you're saying you have all the in-game +heal eq and you still can't reach the cap?  You don't see a problem with that?  The increased cap is one of the benefits of playing a cl-prime.  Plus, clerics don't start at 5x40.  Smaller chars need some accessible +heal eq.

Elsie - devotion - all the bad aspects of alignment rolled into a new skill?  Who wants to be limited to only killing good mobs for a week?

Guinex - I don't think we're focused on new class vs. old class.  I think most of us agree that the new skills for thief, mage, and especially warrior have recently upgraded those classes.  I don't know how they compare now, but if you see Splork's message below you can see the recent changes to the cleric class...or lack thereof.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12705" data-author="Aleksey" data-date="2006-05-25T20:15:36+00:00" data-subject="">

A necro prime 1x40 can solo stuff that 5x40 cannot?

 hm...  and what that stuff looks like?

or who that 5x40?

  I cannot cycle(can kill) only one mob that my necro newb was able to cycle close to 2x40 but its my personal sloth Nemezida, havent found way to cycle him yet.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12706" data-author="13" data-date="2006-05-25T20:45:43+00:00" data-subject="">

Let's see some cleric titties!

Seriously cl/dr is super dirty, forget about if they're cl/dr/ma/ba.

I agree with higher-cap self heal, that would be fuckin' rad.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12707" data-author="Medios" data-date="2006-05-25T21:17:23+00:00" data-subject="">

Krok can solo bigger mobs than Medios.  Its a proven fact, theres no disputing it, nobody can argue.  Medios is Th/Ma with -8 25 damage about 20stabdam and 25 spelldam.  Krok is running with -10ac maxed in spelldam and swole on healb.  She uses what skills she has to get the job done.  I choose to wear max damage and take the ac hit.  She runs in -10 and spelldam.  Her pit fiend is tough.  My supplicants suck for fighting, its not even worth making them just wastes mana.  Eudaemon is cool but the first good mob i splork its gone, and I have to do a run of et or pyramid to get the rabbit back.

 

 The new classes were already in game when I returned to sloth and I went ahead and got Medios to 40av.  Then tired of "old schoo" I decided to make Minstrel.  All I knew was that I already had a thief so I wanted to have a char that was pretty opposite.  I had always heard people talk of leading with damn!  Looking at the restricts on some eq I decided bards had it pretty good and went bard triple nc.  I knew bards could sing to followers, and since clerics were nerfed I had to get necro.  I also knew that druids had high mr outdoors and had a damage reduction spell that stacked with sanc.  

So anyways messing around I made a Ba Dr Cl Ne.  Played it some, getting really upset because I cant stab or grip and to fight it costs mana.  Somehow pushed on to avatar and it all came together.  Now im 40 av, just from playing this new char that was initially a huge pain in the ass.  I know there are chars that can solo more xp , and kill bigger stuff than me but I dont mind.  I have fun with my new char, and if something like druid forms gets nerfed, i got my old schooler to fall back on.

  Basically I feel that if your current char is irritating or makes you angry start a new char.  Youll be surprised who will help you get over the hump.  If I get down on Minstrel, its refreshing to be able to get in Medios and go splork 1m worth of coins.  Im not saying do like Will or Brad and play 100 diff chars.  Just use all the overpowers that you talk about to your benefit.  If necro primes are so damn strong, why dont you have one?  Dont argue with me that its a waste of time to start a new char.  You're already wasting time playing.  

1   Its frustrating and hard to play without cleric somewhere in class.

2   Some classes arent as powerful soloers.

3   Have another char to switch it up every once in awhile.

4   Dont let slothmud ruin your day.

Mike

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12708" data-author="Malison" data-date="2006-05-25T21:32:31+00:00" data-subject="">

about infusing souls (mentioned earlier), they really don't compare with heal spells.  You only infuse after the mob is dead, which is often too late for the healing, and even then it has to be a strongish mob to give you the 100+hp soul, otherwise you get some 20-30hp junk greater soul infusion.

for some pro-cleric...

while they are poor at soloing, it is, as has been stated, a ridiculous support class.  in groups Malison usually runs as a cleric despite being mage prime just because healing is so much more valuable.

and you can't deny how much more powerful a healing spell is in soloing than trying to stay alive with vampiric touch

I believe the original forum issue was that old classes are weak in relation to new classes.  In some extents that's very true.  But going down the who list while writing this, you notice that there is not a single player on who is 4x new classo.  So obviously there's something to be said for old classes

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12709" data-author="*Splork*" data-date="2006-05-25T22:02:38+00:00" data-subject="">

This is one of the more useful threads in the last month+. What  I find intriguing is...the topic of conversation has quickly gone from all the new classes being overpowered compared to old to the problem with cleric primes.  Which again, leads me to believe the majority of people feel as I do, this is the most balanced we have been in years:) There are so many great classos right now that its actually fun for me to watch players mature such as Nab or Kronk.

But anyways, the post Medios just made was perfect. The game will always need tweaks, nerfs, additions, etc. Find a character, play it, and enjoy. If your one of the better players such as thirteen, medios, etc( or even if you aren't), pick a classo that nobody else picks and give it a good kick in the ass. Chances are good that the character will be fun, powerful, and exciting.

In the meantime, expect a few adjustments for cleric primes. Again-nothing earth shattering. Out goal is not to create another great soloer. But to give them some versatility and maybe a little bit more enjoyment.

Enjoy,

Splork

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12710" data-author="madmax" data-date="2006-05-25T22:15:12+00:00" data-subject="">

My $.02 worth. 

As a fellow Cleric Prime, I too feel the pain.  I agree with alot of the discussion.  Soloing is all but impossible for any decent xp.  

Aerial Servant - Somewhat nice in groups to block that occassinal hit, but they still don't stand in front of you on a room proc or spelldamage.  When using solo, if I'm hitting anything "big", it is dead in one round anyway.

Dark Mace - Yes, it is a kick ass weapon. if you are fighting undead, for the proc, and for the regen.  But if you use it in conjunction with any of the other new skills, you can not use it.  I.E. Deathblow, Gut, etc.

Supplicants - Frankly, I cant use them much.  When I'm in a group, i normally get to +1000, once I start to solo anything, I become perma evil.   Once this happens, eudaemon / peri are gone.. the only one that makes any sense as evil, (unless 5x40) is a xeg-yi.  However, then i must deal with the order lag and frequently find myself dead beacuse of this.  Any of the Hosers channel can easily comfirm this.   When playing Jedediah, I use the Peri alot.  makes alot of sense, but not for primes due to the alignment changes.

Maybe when good (+1000), and becoming evil from one kill of a good being (to -300) and the supplicant dissapears, if atonement is casted, the supplicant is returned immediately?  This would help with the occasional kill.

If the "role of the cleric prime" is suppose to be a grouping not solo class,

fine, then give them some prime only spells / skills that mean something.

How bout :

Healing Aura - Mass Heal Spell, Level 40 Cl Prime. 90 mana

cast 'healing aura'  

Creates a healing aura in the room where everyone in the room is healed by 100 hps (+healbonus eq)

Greater Healing Aura - Mass Greater Heal Spell, Avatar 15 (Cl Prime only) - 90 Mana

Works like healing aura, same cast, same mana, except greater heal is used. (+healbonus eq)

Mass Raise - Avatar Cl Prime 30  - For thoes Blaster Quests  :D 

Cost - 300 mana + 50% of maxhps.

Another one maybe,

Holy Touch Spell - Cleric Prime 37 - Cost Variable (100 min)

Heals the player to 90% of maximum hps

The caster must have an good alignment of (+1000 is best).  

Healing up to 600 hps - 100 mana

Over 600 Hps to 800 hps - 150 mana

Over 800 Hps - 150 mana + 1/2 of the casters Maximum Hitpoints

  (yes if not careful, the cleric could kill themselves)

Usage of this spell without thier alignment at +1000 would cause the HP damage on each cast, reguardless of HPS healed.

Raise Dead - I must thank the gods for instututing the XP for raising the dead, that was a nice additon for the cleric primes.  In Blaster's quest, I think I made almost 40 Million XP from raises, (about 16 Mil I think was from Kronk alone  8)  However with all the raises, I couldn't hardley regen mana for heals and Moon Aura.  Maybe Cleric Primes should get an inherent +shock value as well, say based on alignment?  The better your alignment is, the more +shock you get from being good?

Avatar Bard gets Beacon of Fortune, seems this should be a Cleric Ability as well.  It would be nice to be able to relocate directly to a dead player.  Since it is not a song, why not?

I like the idea of a clasp to attach to the light that would make the cleric NOATTACK, meaning, mobs will not attack them AND they can not attack a mob.  This would hopefully prevent misuse of the item.

I too have a large heal as many of you know.  I wear +90 in healbonus eq in regen gear.  My restores are not quite Kroks yet, but she has a couple avatar bonuses on me at the moment.   I can easily heal myself up quickly but in Blasters quest last night, Daedalus could outheal me easily.  Quite frequently in Minstrel's Desert Groups lately, even with the healbonus eq I have, I get put on Moon Aura duty, and back up healing.  Daedalus's regen means the Cleric Primes are no longer 1.healo.

There is no way a cleric prime can compete with 800+ mana and like +90 mana regen standing.  My maximum at 29 Avatar is 606 mana and +63 Ma regen.

I also like the idea of being able to mem up some healing spell, but this is kind of negated with the use of Bard Charms.

I too have created other characters and have almost quit trying to solo Madmax.  It is just too hard to do any good.  Without a Stab or a Grip, I have no large damage lead so I find myself making 4-5 mil/run maximum.  With Jedediah, Th/Ba 2x40, I can solo for more xp than I can with Madmax.  This is understandable, because the two characters are of completely different play styles.

Don't Get Frustrated, Just Have Multiple Characters :) 

Madmax.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12711" data-author="Mystery" data-date="2006-05-25T22:30:20+00:00" data-subject="I blame Splork">

I'm sure this base has already been covered but another cleric prime spell thats is heal based would be nice. I'm sure I'm not the only non-cleric prime char who would rather use their mana for spells/skills instead of being delegated as a backup healo. If I wanted to be healo i'd make a cleric prime.. saying that being backup healo is ok but it takes the fun out of being non-prime cleric.. so i'm all up for givign clerics more healing power.. let them heal so i can rely on my prime skills/spells.. if that makes sense

Maybe I should lay off the herb.. that kinda confuses me now that I read it :twisted:

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12712" data-author="Shyla" data-date="2006-05-25T22:33:34+00:00" data-subject="">

I know this is JUST my opinion but what bothers me is a lot of these new warriors skills are made to require you to have a warrior weapon to use them and not all of us with warrior in our class use warrior weapons.  It would be nice to see more warrior skills and maybe even thief skills put in that you could use with the old classes without trying to use their weapons.  Clerics tend to use dark mace and if you have an old character like I do you can't use swordsmanship,deathblow,broadside.  I mean these are great warrior skills but can we get more skills like this added that you can use with anyweapon like a bashskull skill where you can use a blunt weapon to do more damage?  I love Shyla and I will never stop playing her, I am just saying it might be nice if the skills added could be used more universally with old character classes and not just be made more for primes.  Yes I know if I changed weapons I can use them, but that isn't the point.  It doesn't matter what I am wielding when I firewind or heal.  I would just like to see more warrior skills put in that more of the old classes can get a benefit from.  This is just MY 2 cents :)

shyla

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12714" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-05-25T23:20:48+00:00" data-subject="Ick">

Max!  Please don't base the new skills on forcing a cleric to maintain a good alignment!  I want to actually use those evil supps eventually.  Like necro's, some clerics would like to stay evil, that's the point of a cl/th!!  Of course it takes someone quite insane to play a cl/th, but it can be fun.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12715" data-author="kjartan" data-date="2006-05-25T23:45:57+00:00" data-subject="">

If you are getting too good to use the evil supplication mobs, that's very easy and quick to rectify.  Heck, charm some innocent villager and bring him with you for instant alignment fixing!  (It should really detect that and put you down to -2000 or something if you do that).  Mob level doesn't affect negative alignment swings, only positive ones.

There are some supplication mobs that aren't done yet; they will be warrior types, like the pit fiend but less so.  This discussion seems like a good reason for me to finish those up.  Maybe this weekend.

The idea about atonement bringing back your lost supplication mob seems reasonable.  How often does that happen?  (If you actually only use atonement once in a blue moon, I don't think I'm going to bother.  Although aesthetically it's a very nice feature, maybe I'll do it anyway.)

We may stack more enhancements on dark mace as you get more 40s.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12716" data-author="jezer" data-date="2006-05-26T00:16:57+00:00" data-subject="">

I know this is JUST my opinion but what bothers me is a lot of these new warriors skills are made to require you to have a warrior weapon to use them and not all of us with warrior in our class use warrior weapons.  It would be nice to see more warrior skills and maybe even thief skills put in that you could use with the old classes without trying to use their weapons.  Clerics tend to use dark mace and if you have an old character like I do you can't use swordsmanship,deathblow,broadside.  I mean these are great warrior skills but can we get more skills like this added that you can use with anyweapon like a bashskull skill where you can use a blunt weapon to do more damage?  I love Shyla and I will never stop playing her, I am just saying it might be nice if the skills added could be used more universally with old character classes and not just be made more for primes.  Yes I know if I changed weapons I can use them, but that isn't the point.  It doesn't matter what I am wielding when I firewind or heal.  I would just like to see more warrior skills put in that more of the old classes can get a benefit from.  This is just MY 2 cents :)

shyla[/quote:2ltbjuhz]

I know not to many people were dumb enough to have a classo that started with monk warrior, but shyla is right. Jezer fights bare handed and a lot of those new warrior skills are just useless. Warrior, to people without a sword, is practically a few hp's and crit hit/triple/toss. Don't get me started on how useful thief is for a 3rd class! Erm, pick locks... extremely useful :p Thank goodness I made Ecko.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12717" data-author="jezer" data-date="2006-05-26T00:29:35+00:00" data-subject="">

The order lag for cleric supplicants is stupid!

I mean think about it... you have a pet to help you in battle, and you make it fight some mob and it negates combat rounds? I mean what are you doing in that combat round? Giving it a peticure? (No offence poodle :p) Letting it off its leash? I mean does it take a round in real life to order your dog to sit? I figured it would be more like yelling at your mutt to attack, hardly a round of combat. To some degree lag is justified on necro, cause those pets are downright disobediant and evil... but not cleric pets. I figure necro's are chaotic and clerics are ordered.

Well if your lucky enough to be killing evil mob's with a peri or eudaemon you experience no lag, cause you mostly keep them out of the battle.

To some degree I can take the hit, from having two rounds on non-prime necro but really this lag idea is silly. Even if I grip a mob, and use my grip rounds of reduced hit to order mobs I can still wind up dead. Lag should be removed on cleric.

Here endeth the rant!  :D

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12718" data-author="Shazuko" data-date="2006-05-26T00:35:14+00:00" data-subject="">

Up until Shyla and Kj's last posts...most of you have been focused mainly on the healing/raising aspect of clerics...but there is another type of cleric, its called a PRIEST, those who have been chosen to 'defend their faith'...as such perhaps _if_ there are any changes/improvements to be made to the class, they might be focused a bit on the combat side of the cleric. There have been many priests throughout history that have picked up a cudgel and a shield and proeeded to smite the deviants...this might make them a little more adept at soloing without tweaking the same old same old...

Shazuko Roku Ryuu

<Shazuko Six Dragons>

<~Chaos~>

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12719" data-author="*Splork*" data-date="2006-05-26T00:39:15+00:00" data-subject="">

Obviously the skills were not coded for a barehanded fighter or cleric in mind. We keep track of all skills and spells used ingame and I can say without a doubt that they are being used more than most. The object is to give options in different situations, not to give skills that are going to be used by everyone 100% of the time. Check any groups off lyme and this becomes quite apparent.

I like warriors wielding these types of weapons. I will continue to add skills which use them as well :twisted: 

This is no different than requiring a monk to be barehanded or a thief to wield a dagger. Pick how you want to play, but there are tons of options.

Enjoy,

Splork

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12720" data-author="Mosaix" data-date="2006-05-26T01:06:54+00:00" data-subject="">

Again Id be looknig for more group related assistance for Cleric Prime.  I solo a little, but usually end up doing 2-3 man exp/eq, or big lyme groups.  Its more fun, and I level/gain eq faster.  

I dont expect to be a crazy solo player, its not why I picked Cleric, instead it was to have fun in groups.  I ran Sloth 2 with a Thief/Mage and moved around and leveled easily.  Sloth 3 I wanted something different, and I sure did get that.

I agree with Madmax, been being bumped down to 3. 4. healo while druid/necros run the heals.  Doesnt make sense for a cleric prime to be pushed there.  100% Defeats the purpose of picking cleric for prime.  You end up being group fodder.

I built Mosaix a very long time ago, and still dont have him near 40 avatar.  It was well before the new classos, and before valk was even put in.

I have never had time to run the mud the way most do, and mostly have played for the social group enjoyment of the mud.

After I finish Mosaix, will definately choose a new player and some of the new classos, possibly even a new cleric prime again but with better order to the char.

The healbonus stuff in game is nice, however....My comment earlier about adding  cleric prime eq for healbonus, sys shock etc.  was to help clerics get the healbouns and sys shock in less places and in bigger ammounts.  Would be nice to not take off +15mana +2regen rings just to run +5 healbonus rings.  Kind of a waste to do it then.  Make it easier for us to heal and not shock.  

Maybe a skill for clerics could be something along the way of Mob Invis.  Getting to those who need raises or heals without getting thumped to death on the way to them.  Its pretty easy to go splat as a cleric.

Or maybe the mobs could sense your good deeds and decide not to kick your a** sort of skil.  Free pass through death areas if your good aligned, if your evil you become a beer coaster like normal.

Again with the eq, seeing some tasty cleric prime stuff would be a lot of fun.  Make it group based eq chock full of mana, healbonus, sys shock and regen.  Those drachma shops need new stuff anyway :) Tasty tasty.

Thanks for all the chat everyone on this topic, definately appreciate it.

Mosaix

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12721" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-05-26T01:12:44+00:00" data-subject="classes">

I can actually see having the warrior skills dependant on the bigger weapons.  It's fun to have new skills, and warriors should be using the big weapons.  The negative aspect is that it breaks a lot of the synergy that players normally get from choosing classes in a multiclass mud.

Anyway, back to clerics   :)

I agree with Mos, current healbonus eq is a little...lackluster.  I like the idea of ring clasps because there aren't many clasps around for rings, plus you can keep your ma/mr rings on at the same time.  5 or even 10 healbonus is a lot less attractive when you lose a bunch of ma or mr.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12722" data-author="13" data-date="2006-05-26T01:42:59+00:00" data-subject="">

That was an excellent summation Mike.  Cheers brother.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12723" data-author="madmax" data-date="2006-05-26T01:57:18+00:00" data-subject="Re: Ick">

Max!  Please don't base the new skills on forcing a cleric to maintain a good alignment!  I want to actually use those evil supps eventually.  Like necro's, some clerics would like to stay evil, that's the point of a cl/th!!  Of course it takes someone quite insane to play a cl/th, but it can be fun.[/quote:6s33qbq9]

I don't think you read what I was meaning.  If the Cleric Prime is healing, not assisting in the group, this by nature increases the alignment.  In _most_ XP groups, alignment gets to +1000 easily.  This was intended to be used as a group function and only in _rare_ instances when needed.  Not a normal everyday restoration.

I still like the idea of the cleric not assisting, just healing thier comrades in arms.  But, the XP system is not really set for this.

As Splork had said, he saw the cleric prime as a helper not a Solo character.  I was just trying to offer some options that fix with that theory.  Kind of like casting Moon Aura on yourself... just dosen't work or make sense.

Madmax

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12724" data-author="12345" data-date="2006-05-26T02:13:47+00:00" data-subject="">

Well, I definately appreciate clerics in groups, because it's where they shine.  However, I was trying to come up with options that would assist with both solo and group play.  I don't see much reason that clerics shouldn't be ultra-effective against undeads.  I also agree that Druids being the ultimate healers defeats the purpose of being a cleric prime.

Giving better heals to clerics and making heals effective agaist undeads would solve both problems.  The main trouble I see restores are a pretty good chunk of a 1x40 cleric's mana, and you need to be able to chop most of a mob down with it and still have some heals for yourself.  So, a prime healing ability would solve numerous problems.

The 2 prime skills per class would be a problem... but I don't think aerial servant is so ultra-useful that it can't be a non-prime skill.  I could certainly be wrong though.

I don't think clerics should be locked into groups though, because group coins completely suck.  They need some solo options one way or another.  What's the harm of making them hell on wheels against undeads?

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12725" data-author="Leaf" data-date="2006-05-26T02:32:18+00:00" data-subject="">

I only really have like maybe hum... 3-4 chars that I do like to play.

The rest are just collecting dust :)

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12729" data-author="13" data-date="2006-05-26T12:16:04+00:00" data-subject="">

I thought undeads were already heal_hurt, no?

If not I agree that a bigger self-heal and a big undead nuke would help a lot.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12731" data-author="madmax" data-date="2006-05-26T12:55:30+00:00" data-subject="">

I thought undeads were already heal_hurt, no?

If not I agree that a bigger self-heal and a big undead nuke would help a lot.[/quote:cjqke73k]

Only a few mobs in Sheol Cemetary as far as I know are damaged by heals.

Here is a Kobold zombie (BTW death by one firewind)

l zombie

This grisly, undead kobold stands by its own grave.  It has blank, dead

eyes, yet it seems to see you anyway.  It is slow moving and moves in an

awkward, jerking manner.

A kobold zombie has quite a few wounds.

<739hp 603+60ma 147mv> +0 <indoors - 711,919,028 XP - 372,969 coins>

You hit a kobold zombie hard.

You hit a kobold zombie very hard.

You hit a kobold zombie very hard.

A kobold zombie glares at you, chilling you to your very bones...

You stare down a kobold zombie, who cowers away!

<740hp 606+60ma 149mv> +0 <indoors - 711,919,368 XP - 372,969 coins>

restor zombie

Ok.

A kobold zombie glows with a blinding light!

<740hp 548+60ma 149mv> +0 <indoors - 711,919,368 XP - 372,969 coins>

l zombie

You hit a kobold zombie very hard.

A kobold zombie claws you very hard.

You hit a kobold zombie hard.

This grisly, undead kobold stands by its own grave.  It has blank, dead

eyes, yet it seems to see you anyway.  It is slow moving and moves in an

awkward, jerking manner.

A kobold zombie has some small wounds and bruises.

<730hp 551+60ma 150mv> +0 <indoors - 711,919,588 XP - 372,969 coins>

wind

Ok.

Winds of Flame pour from your hands, killing a kobold zombie instantly.

A kobold zombie is dead! R.I.P.

You received 3702 experience points.

Your blood freezes as you hear a kobold zombie's death cry.

You get gold coins from the corpse of a kobold zombie that's on the ground.

There were 250 coins.

<731hp 555+60ma 152mv> +0 <indoors - 711,927,430 XP - 373,219 coins>

You can see that the zombie was healed, not damaged.

Madmax

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12732" data-author="12345" data-date="2006-05-26T12:57:58+00:00" data-subject="">

Bah, not my specialty, but I'll try to explain what I mean by effective...

A restore does about 190 healing and costs about 60 mana to toss.  That's about 1 mana for 3 damage.  As of the leaked code, firewind was 25 mana and did about 250 damage full and 125 saved.  Saved, that's about 1 mana for 5 damage, 10 if mob fails save.  So, mages are about 2-3x more effective at blasting.  Figure your average mage mob is also pretty thin, where your undead is going to be thicker.  So, I'm going to end up burning more mana to do less damage to a thicker mob...

Now, it's entirely possible that there's a multiplier to damage done through heals that I don't know about.  I'm just saying, at face value, the heals_hurt thing sounds cool, but doesn't look like it would actually be practical in actual gameplay.

As a means of backing this up some: In the quest the other night, we managed to get the mob down to BNW in 1 run using some mana to heal tanks and other mana to blast the mob with disints and such.  Using all our mana to heal the mob we had to be restored several times so we could continue blasting it enough to kill it.  That would seem to support my argument.

My conclusion from this is that heals_hurt is not effective and needs to be relooked.  Since we're on the topic on clerics, it would seem appropriate :)

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12739" data-author="Rodek" data-date="2006-05-26T17:33:22+00:00" data-subject="">

I have made characters with the new classes and played my old ones.  I had been gone for about 5 years, and was pretty impressed with the balancing that has been done with the classes -- its obvious to me that a lot of thought went into this and many tweaks were made.

Not all classes are going to be good at the same thing -- its called variety.   Not all class orders will be good at soloing -- why insist on trying to come up with something to make a cleric prime better able to solo?  A cleric is intended as a grouping character.  A better choice would be mass healing spells that cure an entire group.  

Not all classes will be great in a group.  Stand-alone, a cleric is much more useful in a group than a druid, a necromancer is great solo but again not as good as a cleric in a group -- aside from weakness and crimson scourge they are not strong in a group setting when the situation prevents them from using undead (which is nearly every large group ive been in)

There is certainly room for new skills and tweaks, but my feeling is that it is pretty good right now.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12902" data-author="marchessa_the_red_witch" data-date="2006-06-07T08:48:33+00:00" data-subject="">

Yes, the new classes are overpowered, particularly necromancer, but this is as much because of the mud, and dikumud, as it is because of a design flaw.

The basic flaw that necrotars exploit is built into the game, which is suppose to encourage groups, not soloing. This means that larger mobs yield more experience than a similar difficulty of smaller mobs. In old old school - pre-avatar, soloing characters hit smaller or runs of smaller mobs, and go less experience and gold. Gearing a character class to kill larger mobs, by definition, doubles their rate of experience. Necrotars are unbalanced, because of the same flaw that made old old theives unbalanced, they can do damage without spending anything to do it. For old old thieves this was "stab/flee/repeat". Stab costs mvs because of this, to stop the thief from spending a few mvs, and getting a firewind  worth of damage from it, while avoiding any in return.

What is wrong with current necros was seen before, old old school clerics could summon large numbers of undead, and soloing clerics would do that, rather than run healo. Which in old old school meant no group. Several prime clerics exploited this until it was closed. So the new necro is really the same problem as the original cleric, and the original thief combined.

Now how to fix this is more in the side of the mud than in the side of the class. Necros are range limited in moves because of their entourage, and dependent on corpses. Right now embalm is too powerful - and corpses are plentiful. If embalm were more limited, and mobs wer emore aggressive about removing corpses from circulation, one of the big flaws in necro blance would go away - suddenly necros would want to group, because one thing that warriors do well, and groups do well, is generate corpses. If pets had a much reduced chance of robbing xp - then necors would be more welcome in groups, and would have more incentive to join to get access to precious raw material.

This way the life of the solo necromancer would be to spend lots of runs hitting "easy to kill juicy corpsing mobs" and then blowing it on a big run. Right now, the big runs are more or less self perpetuating. Instead, like most classes, necros should have to shuttle between different kinds of run. For warriors, between blast mobs and tank mobs. For mages, between thin mobs that blast down well, and mobs that debuff easily. And so on.

The other problem is that the mud is not "necro-aware". Consider that clerical mobs should turn undead when facing a necro-mancer as a matter of course - even low level ones could blast away at undead with the cleric advantage in that area. We have nostab flags, we have untossable mobs, caster mobs know to debuff their targets, and blind procs come aplenty - caster mobs should make stripping the necro followers off a priority. Necromancers should live in fear of the eirok that slabs followers and disappears, the clerical wandering mob that turns one into dust, and the devout mob that sends bodies onward. 

The changes required wouldn't be large, and would not even be noticed. Make more mobs that hate corpses, and hate pets, make more mobs turn undead, and add a few mvs to areas that otherwise are feeding grounds for the necrotars "army of one" effect.

Another simple problem with necrotars is eq - they don't need much. This again is from game balance considerations. In a group, the warrior 10% advantage from armor class over other character classes is huge - it means that two healers have, effectively, another restore or two between them, and the warrior can survive more rounds of "double lost conc" on the heals coming in. But solo, this advantage does not amount to much, because solo the warrior isn't doing much damage. The necrotar has, then 90% of the ac of a warrior, and 4 times the damage. Since the optimum solo balance is to run out of mana just before you run out of hps - the warrior having 300hps left over after blasing out means... he heals up and has to sleep mana. Mages have the reverse problem, they run out of hps long before they have blasted out. 

The solution is to nerf pets, but give it back with eq - so that a tricked out necro will have the same pets as the current necro does, merely having to pop eq on nasty mobs - and thus have to group - to get there. Just the way warriors have to group to pop several key pieces of eq, or cycle small mobs endlessly. 

With these changes - reducing the damage taking capacity of necros, changing mobs and areas to be more necro aware - and requiring necros to get eq that is as difficult and time consuming to pop as warrior or high level mage eq is - and the class will snap back into proportion. Fix the xp stealing by pets in groups, and people won't want necros to "self nerf" in a group to avoid the horror of xp loss.

The addition of classes was a brilliant thing to do - because it stopped the oversupply of warriors - now people often have to beg for enough tank to start a group, rather than always beggin healo. Now what ought to happen is that new classes have the same problems as old ones - have to pop eq, and have dependencies on grouping, and but also more to give groups. There also needs to be more "new school" awareness on the part of mobs and areas so that these areas don't restrict old classes, but allow new classes to work everywhere unencumbered.

The reason I write this is that necrotraas, as stand, violate the long standing philosophy of diku mud:

1. Characters should be more powerful in a group than solo.

2. Characters should want to kill lots of different mobs and not just be able to cycle a few areas.

3. The mud should prevent winning strategies from working everywhere.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12903" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-06-07T13:32:38+00:00" data-subject="Again?">

I don't disagree with most of Marchessa's points.  There are a few though that I could add some discussion points to:

1)  Necrotar.  Does anyone use that term?  Seems kinda silly to me.  I've never seen the term 'warriortar' or 'thieftar'.

2)  Cleric mobs should "blast away at undead with the cleric advantage in that area", "stripping the necro followers off".  I don't know if you play a cleric or a mage, but I don't think clerics blasting undead have the effect that you imply.

Other than that, I wonder about the general objectives that you state for dikumud, and whether sloth even tries to follow those objectives.  The old style of using liches / charms wasn't necessarily broken.  Some people enjoy the challenge of soloing larger mobs.  If the setup time and cycle time takes an hour, some of the players here will spend that hour to cycle one mob.  Sure, a group could do 4 runs in that time and gain more xps / coins for the time, but that's not the goal of everyone who plays.  The endless group grind is fun at times, but a lot of the character base has more diverse interests.  I consider this one of the strengths of sloth that the admin here, whether purposefully or accidentally, have implemented features that support various play styles.

All that said, players can migrate to the charater types that they enjoy.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12904" data-author="Ditheca" data-date="2006-06-07T16:59:41+00:00" data-subject="">

People are going to be upset when the stats come out for this week and they see all the xp I've gotten with my "Necrotar" :P

Sorry to disappoint, but my xp runs involve lots of deathgripping, lots of striking, and zero summoning of undead pets.

Why do I completely ignore my prime class of necromancer in favor of my monk tert skills?  Because monks XP faster than necros.  Why will most of the monks on the mud disagree with that statement? They don't have powerful eq (which you claim is useless to necromancers)

Having played every classo on the mud except druid prime, I think i've got a pretty good grip on the balance of power among the classes.  That leaves me more or less free to ignore Marchessa (who plays a strictly old school classo) and her comments about new classos.

Marchessa, when's the last time you actually watched a "necrotar" xp?  Oh wait, you can't get to lyme; guess your post is entirely based on hearsay.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12905" data-author="Guinex" data-date="2006-06-07T17:42:15+00:00" data-subject="">

Well here is my two cents.

I am a 5x40 Necro Avatar.

I don't even use animate because it takes to much of my little time to get dracolich corpses.

I spend about 15 minutes or so to prep to do a run.

Old school classos suck.

Make a new char.

Thieves/Monks are geared for xp.

Read class descriptions it says necros are geared for solo (P.S. has anyone ever read that?)

Oh yea, its not always the classo, some people just don't know how to play.

*smoke*

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12907" data-author="Deju" data-date="2006-06-07T20:07:01+00:00" data-subject="">

Marchessa -

If you dont like your current classo and think another one is overpowered, I would strongly suggest starting a new char in the supposedly overpowered classo and take advantage of the "fault in the mud".  Once you start working with a supposedly overpowered classo, you quickly realize that they indeed have other limitations you didn't consider.  In addition to Deju (a th/wa built before the "new" classes), I built Scrugg (Ne/Dr).. and they are basically completely opposite chars.  Each one has its advantages and disadvantages that balance out.  To me, this is the definition of balanced.  I think Splork, KJ, et. all have done a great job of balancing the classes and giving each one advantages/disadvantages... especially with the additions for Cleric primes.

In the time it took you to write that gigantic post you could have already leveled up a newbie to 8, seen your stats, and been on your way with another char!

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12908" data-author="Rajil" data-date="2006-06-07T23:09:39+00:00" data-subject="">

[quote:2dbga6ot]Ditheca:

Why do I completely ignore my prime class of necromancer in favor of my monk tert skills? Because monks XP faster than necros. Why will most of the monks on the mud disagree with that statement? They don't have powerful eq (which you claim is useless to necromancers)

[/quote:2dbga6ot]

There's a special case, Dith. No cap days. A necro will out xp any class on nocap. Other than that, yeah, a monk or thief prime can xp faster than a necro prime.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12911" data-author="alias" data-date="2006-06-08T01:51:11+00:00" data-subject="">

K Ive been watching this old class vs new class stuff and im pulling my hair out. It really bothers me when people complain and don't do anything about it.

Start a necro and level up on your own - its not as easy as thief or monk or war. oh and necros dont need any eq to be buff...hello? I feel as if ac is only important to Warriors and Necros, the war is obvious why but the necro needs it is basically he/she tanks for his summons, animates and w/o parry they put the smack down on you. oh and most classes need 2 sets of eq 1 running and 1 regen, well necros need 3- regen, ac, and undead control. So there goes the argument that we need to make them cycle for long periods to get all the eq they need. Ive spent the last few weeks trying to pop undead control eq for my necro and I never spent that much time cycling for my war eq. 2 weeks for 2 pieces of eq and I feel lucky to have popped them so fast. I like to play both my chars equal amounts but the war/monk is easier and its a lot less thinking than planning out an attack as a necro. 

I also agree w/ previous posters if you think a class is overpowered ....if ya can't beat them join them.

make a char and have fun.

Alias

P.S. I dont have a cleric prime but I love the advancements that have been made for clerics.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12912" data-author="Guinex" data-date="2006-06-08T03:38:01+00:00" data-subject="">

Hmmm i have 5 different sets of eq, tank,uc,blast/heal,shock.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12914" data-author="12345" data-date="2006-06-08T04:06:21+00:00" data-subject="">

Shock?  I didn't think taking off your helmet counted as an eq set.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12915" data-author="Ezekiel" data-date="2006-06-08T07:38:54+00:00" data-subject="">

First of all, I want to say thanks for everyone actually adding valuable input and solutions where flames and incessant complaints would usually reside.

I used to bitch quite a bit about the balancing of old classes to new etc. but recently the imms have done much in effort to quell many of the problems and I have been satisfied with such attempts for the most part.

The part that continually distresses me however is the cleric primes sacrificing soloing capability only to be passed up by druid primes/secs in groups in healos. Either give them the ability to really stand out in groups for their prime, or give them solo. I know they should not be able to solo nearly as well as necro prime and such, but when i see the big groups having dr/ne and dr/cl healers simply due to the druid placement over cleric primes... that defeats the purpose of classifying them as more essential group characters than such new classes. Sure, the clerics get a higher max healbonus but what good is that against druid regen with cleric (restore capability) anywhere to supplement? If you're going to take some solo abilities away from clerics because each prime is structured for different gameplay... fine, but when a dr/cl/ne or ma/dr/cl can solo huge mobs and still get placed in the healo above a cleric prime due to regen, I see a problem. The only way to really combat this now is to go cl/dr then, and I don't believe it should really only be worth choosing cleric as a truly group char (as the prime structuring seems to entitle you to) if your sec is already assigned as well. Just my take on things...feel free to flame but I hope we have more constructive input on the topics. I have a cleric prime but haven't utilized it much due to the same issue I just raised. Many of the suggestions that were aforementioned seem at least workable for new implements and I'd hope to see it. I don't favor cleric primes soloing huge mobs either, just a greater asset to groups as a reward for what they are to sacrifice while solo.

Thanks, 

Ezekiel

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12916" data-author="Weasel" data-date="2006-06-08T09:13:54+00:00" data-subject="">

Shock?  I didn't think taking off your helmet counted as an eq set.[/quote:2ctucr2g]

LMAO  :lol:

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12922" data-author="13" data-date="2006-06-08T21:54:20+00:00" data-subject="">

[quote:1zmqn7uy]<731hp 555+60ma 152mv> +0 <indoors - 711,927,430 XP - 373,219 coins> [/quote:1zmqn7uy]

jesus dude, you run with that spam?

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12923" data-author="Medios" data-date="2006-06-08T21:59:12+00:00" data-subject="">

Lets bring this out into the open.  The druid that everyone is talking about is Daedalus.  Chrissy doesnt have protect and is always at the bottom of the group.  Since sometimes there are other 4xnc sometimes shes not even protected.  This basically relegates her to healing.  Sure I could have her wind on stab, then die every time.  Before everyone jumps out to make judgements against druids lets do this.  Make a Cl Dr Ma Ne and level it up to 5x40.  Get max healbonus and spelldamage with all the mr you can muster.  Im not talking about cheap eq, i mean elite stuff, umm like flaming shield of midnight, ars magica, etc etc.  Then get in a group and see if your 55 mana restores with 90 healbonus, and the cheap heals that hit for like 300hp dont change things.  You guys want to compare your weakass chars to Daedalus and I just dont think its a fair assessment.  Get some eq, learn some areas and start using these "cheats" and overpowers to your advantage.  Unless everyone crying wants to come out and say they arent smart enough to figure this stuff out I really cant listen to it.    

Mike

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12927" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-06-09T00:05:16+00:00" data-subject="nah">

It's not just Daed, it happens often.  It helps that Aife wears healbonus eq, but I often see druids assigned to healo while cleric primes are either floating or blasting.  Also, it's not just classo...sometimes you need someone dependable in a healo, even if their class isn't optimal for it.

Anyway, I think the recent changes helped so I don't know that it's still an issue.  Clerics last longer in a healo, so even if they regen more slowly the mana is more effective.  I think it works out pretty well now, and I've seen more clerics in healo recently.  In my opinion it may take some time to evaluate the situation and retrain our leaders.

</div>

<div class="post" data-post-id="12929" data-author="Gimlet" data-date="2006-06-09T04:17:55+00:00" data-subject="my 2 cents">

Having led a bunch, there are only ever 3 people I would trust to be at the Top of the Healo, and hence at the bottom of my group.  Of course, I'm not referring to people who I've never led before.

The 3 of them would be Avatar, Rynquald,  and Daedalus.  Only one of them is a druid.  It's not so much that they have mega regen and mega heals, but the fact that they are alert in healo, and know when to heal to minimize the risk of overhealing.

I've led groups where I (or my tank) die with some clerics having 400+ mana.  Being a cleric doesn't give you the divine right to be a mega healer.  You still have to learn how to be a proper healo, just like being a warrior doesn't make you a good tank.

speaking of tanks, now that I've gotten tri40, who are the tanks under 3x40?

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12934" data-author="Ezekiel" data-date="2006-06-09T07:42:35+00:00" data-subject="">

I don't know if Medios was directing that comment at me...but I know damn well that daedalus is an exceptional char with exceptional eq...it's not the premise of Daedalus healing over others that distresses me...it's the fact that while a druid can outheal mostly due to outregen, they are still able to solo at a much greater scale than a cleric.. who can never even aspire to that same classification. I don't mind if druid healo capability exceeds cleric as long as you then give clerics that same chance to solo and quit putting them in a box. Otherwise, I was just suggesting that since the big issue is cleric primes being primarily group structured than they should have a much more distinct advantage. Just an opinion that's all...never whined nor made it sound like crying. Just a take on things, alike to the others (which I may or may not have agreed with) I lauded rather than flamed for attempting constructive input.

Cheers,

Ezekiel

P.S. From what Charles said, I undoubtedly agree with the fact that attentiveness and experience is more heavily a factor in the healo process than a classo. Never said otherwise...was just addressing the perception of the cleric prime and how I'd hope it'd change one of two ways.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12936" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-06-09T12:52:50+00:00" data-subject="healers">

Eze, just to get your input, have you grouped / healed much since the recent changes to cleric?  Valkyrie nice, but I mean rather the reduced cost for heals / greater heals / restores.  I'm just wondering if the people who play clerics think that cleric primes still need help.

In my own opinion, from the bottom paragraph of my latest post, I think the recent changes have shifted clerics back towards being the preferred healers.  

I'm not sure about the numbers, but just for discussion I'll guess that clerics get a 10% reduction in the cost of heals, and druids get a 15% bonus to mana regen.  So, if you ignore the healbonus cap (very few players reach their cap anyway) druids still seem to have a technical edge.  In practice though, unless you are running areas that are entirely outdoors (desert), the druids don't get any bonus while indoors.  For a lot of the commonly run areas (bh castle, mh, dragonmount, dot, etc) clerics are going to be much more efficient - at least while using heal/gheal/restore.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12939" data-author="Mosaix" data-date="2006-06-09T14:23:58+00:00" data-subject="">

I like the new changes to Cleric.  Servant hps are nice now, gives me a chance to solo something for a round or 2 without getting hit.

The mace was, is, and looking forward to avatar levl 40 coolness.

Id still like to see cleric stones, if even just for primes, and maybe a new affordable eq choice in the shop.  have Faur run a sale on the essence of life. its a neat gadget, but can never get myself to spend the 367 on it.

Maybe even mass raise dead for cleric primes.  Everything else seems to be "massed" a high level avatar cleric should be able to raise em all quickly.

Ive found as a Cleric my best chance of exp is doing 2 man with a necro or monk.  Cl/Ma allows for nice spell damn and heal bouns to run with someone doing the dirty work.  I dont really need to solo, and its fun to chat 2-3 person exp/eq.  

Grouping is fun, I consider myself a good Healer and try to watch for what is not being kept up in a group.   Gimlet, having talked and put our recent issue aside, hopefully I can show you im also a good Cleric.  After i manage to get attuned my restores will be a chunk over 400hps.  I think thats enough as even at 350, seems like others overheal if i wait to maximize healing.  Id gladly trade 50 healbonus for a few mana regen points to the char.

Have fun, play hard.

Aaron log in and catch up with me please, thanks much.  Would like to

finish what we discussed online.

Mosaix

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12940" data-author="Mosaix" data-date="2006-06-09T14:36:14+00:00" data-subject="">

Would like to add that Druids do have good regen.  I dont think that is a problem.  Frankly their shifting lag needs to be worked on, some dont shift cause the lag stinks.  Waste of a good ability.

Daeadlus is a good healer, but that relects the person being good more than her abilities.  She has great eq, and if all had the same eq perhaps the intensity of the language from others would have been better understood.

Clerics attempts to bring attention to the class as a prime were for that.  Not to nerf others.   If you want to nerf other classos post it in a different thread maybe.   Cleric prime should have traits to match the strength of the others, and I think its getting there.

Thanks very much for the efforts to cleric.

Mosaix

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12942" data-author="13" data-date="2006-06-09T18:41:51+00:00" data-subject="">

[quote:2sicd2g7]You guys want to compare your weakass chars to Daedalus and I just dont think its a fair assessment. Get some eq, learn some areas and start using these "cheats" and overpowers to your advantage. Unless everyone crying wants to come out and say they arent smart enough to figure this stuff out I really cant listen to it. [/quote:2sicd2g7]

^ that's my dog!

ps Zojak and a bunch of fuckers from stonehold are in my guild now on sb.

let the good fight commence!!

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12944" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-06-09T21:09:00+00:00" data-subject="Cleric-ness">

I just wanted to point out that if you've got some Av bonuses or +heal eq, you might want to consider using heal during normal rounds and only using restore when the tank is in trouble.  I don't remember where the level of +heals makes the heal spell more mana efficient...  For some people, using heal instead of restore may mean a +20% effectiveness as a member of a healo.

Charles

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12948" data-author="Gimlet" data-date="2006-06-10T04:07:13+00:00" data-subject="">

hee mosaix

i never said u weren't a good cleric, i just said from memory of those I've lead recently :)

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12974" data-author="Ezekiel" data-date="2006-06-11T21:16:30+00:00" data-subject="">

Ah...I hadn't tinkered much with my cleric since the new changes. Thanks for the tip Charles. Pretty nice indeed, thx imms.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12975" data-author="12345" data-date="2006-06-11T21:45:25+00:00" data-subject="">

I kinda laughed when I saw a comment along the lines of 'retrain the leaders'.  There's several rolls I look for when running and group and I sometimes have people doing things that aren't intuitive to their class.

As examples:  Having cleric primes blast instead of heal in stab/blast groups.  They just don't seem to understand that if you heal me for 350 a round and I'm taking 600 a round, you're healing me to death.  A good frostbolt or two would be more effective.

Having mage primes heal in xp groups.  Again, against an infinately thick mob, the damage the bolts do just isn't worth the mana cost.  I can have them act as healos and it gives the true clerics time to regen mana and extend my runs.

It is sometimes practical to have druids shift in groups, but it's rare.  Finding another job for them usually means placing them in the healo.

The comment about being effective is VERY true.  I have no reservations at all about changing the healo midstride if I think the situation calls for someone with more mana reserves, larger heals or straight more reliability.  Avoiding CFs is my main goal and I act accordingly.

Either way, I guess the moral is you might not be doing exactly what you want to be doing in any given situation.  In a group its the leaders decision, and in the case of a druid, I'm not letting 600+ mana go to waste just because I don't want him shifting.  I don't think I've ever given preferance to any class over another, though I might lean harder on folks like Rynquald and Poodle that have proven time and again that they can handle the pressure.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12976" data-author="Elsie" data-date="2006-06-12T08:55:38+00:00" data-subject="">

Elsie is a Wa/Ma/Cl/Ba mostly old school there may be better or more powerful combinations out there, it may even be unfair that I can't solo as fast as other combinations, it could also be unfair that other classos have better equipment available to them and do more damage. A lot of this has occured to me over time and some of it I've found frustrating, but hell so what ... who ever said life should be fair and equal to everyone.

If you want it to be fair lets change sloth to be a single class mud, with no choice of class .... no wait then some chars would have better stats .... that wouldn't be fair ... ok every one is generic class with all 18 stats, except that then we'd all have different equipment ... that wouldn't be fair, lets all have the same equipment and while we're about it same xp levels and drachma too .... hell just for fun lets make this all completely fair and only have one char that we all share .... its still not fair though some of us have better scripts and knowledge of areas and can just play better.

Come on guys the fact that we can make choices and that its a game means that it will be unfair, if you don't like the balance or want a different classo change, you're choosing 4 classes from 8 its actually quite hard to make a bad choice.

The imms and builders here have done an outstanding job of building this mud and trying to make it fun for us. Lets give them credit for that and thank them rather than constantly whinging at them.

Elsie

p.s. Thanks for the drachma scatter in UK daytime last week ... only got a few (mainly as I need to learn areas better) but I appreciate it none the less.

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<div class="post" data-post-id="12982" data-author="Avatar" data-date="2006-06-12T14:21:54+00:00" data-subject="classes">

I agree with Elsie's point:  with 4 choices of very nice classes, it's hard to make a "bad" character.  They'll each have strengths and weaknesses, but learning to play to your strengths and minimize the weaknesses is part of the fun.  

On the other hand, part of the reason that the 8 classes are so well balanced is because of constructive feedback from players.  If you see something that's not right or could be improved, it makes sense to start a discussion.  There have been some good changes that result from crier threads, and there's likely other improvements that could still be discussed.  We're lucky to have responsive, involved admin - I'll admit that and thank them any day of the week.  

(Not every day of the week...just 'any' day...  hehehe...)

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