Greetings.
Today in my group a 20lev newbie was calling Rhodo and it popped, amazingly. At the moment, I decided to honor the call and gave the gem to the newbie, who also has a tri40 main.
Two other persons were so discontent with that that they left the group and were pissed. This ended the group.
We talked about a bit and I decided that:
it’s worth honoring the call this time, because it raises a dangerous precedent, when a gem is called, but not given to the caller. I don’t know how to take the gem away from a person after it has loaded. Other players wanted to call rhodo, but didn’t, so they didn’t dispute that a 20lev can call a rhodo, when he did.
in further groups it might make sense to limit gem calls of 20lev newbies to t1s and sub tri40s to t2.
Those that discontent with my decision can:
pay better attention to what gems they call in groups and call the gems they need on joining
dispute gem calls if they think they are unfair before the gem popped.
If you have any better solutions to this issue, voice it here or online personally. Thanks.
One of the solutions offered were not to group with 20s, but then we’d have little chance to get 10+ ppl for groups to load T3 gems. If ppl dont want 20s in groups, then:
we don’t help them level up
don’t socialize them enough, so they learn how to group
we’ll have to settle with poor group attendance and no t3 gems in groups.
I’m also pretty sure imms won’t be increasing newbie attendance just so we could pop more T3 gems.
So what does it leave us with?
I agree. You don’t help the group any, essentially your begging for exp… and then want to call tier 3 gems..
can also see he called it expecting it… so regardless, Taron is always wrong no matter what!
Same bs every time.. fighting over calls in exp groups…
If were still actively leading would probably tell people no gems calls anymore unless your helping. But telling them before is the way to go, think that is the root of the problem..
so everyone he will ever lead needs to post a disclaimer with guide lines for calls in there exp groups!
But then i am allegedly a mean bastard… so… whatever…
please cast detect sarcasm and reread..
Addendum: to pop more t3 gems, I actively invite other ppl to join the group.
The newb in question asked to join himself, because he has a main. However, I invited another newbie to join us, just so we could be 10 ppl before Mount of Mordi.
So first, we invite newbies to get more gems, then we boot them from their calls. Not cool.
Yes, i can tell by the number of tier3 gems you pop in your groups.. this works for you.. right?
make crumbs make a statistical register for gems!!!!
I haven’t done the math, but I haven’t seen t3 gems load in 5-9 man groups recently. T2, yes, a GY Topaz, but no T3 gems.
My 2 cents…If a player has called a gem and it pops, then it should go to them. If others in the group have an issued with the gem called by a low level player, it needs to be said when they join.
If you start not giving the gems to people who call them, nobody will want to group with you. But also remember, you can’t make everyone happy. I personally think you did the honorable thing.
-Jaid/Rayne
I’ve talked to ppl some and it does appear it makes more sense to allow avatars call T3s and others call the remaining gems. It means that avatars need to speak up, if a newbie calls a t3 gem. This is how it worked earlier and it just didn’t in this case: the newbie grouped with us for a while, then left, then came back, then called Rhodo 10 minutes before it was popped, so an active top healer didn’t have much time to react or chose not to react, when a Rhodo call was changed earlier - a person left.
Recently, I’ve had two newbies not join me, because they couldn’t call t3 gems by the new rules, so that didn’t help us, at all.
However, do bear in mind that players’ power is what moves exp groups, which allows us to kill more and tougher mobs with a chance of gems, so at least some prioiritization of avatars is practically a given in the same way, a 20lev can’t expect to call a 60m mob in an EQ group, run by avatars.
Then again, I’m pondering a simple rule that any calls count as long as they are made and aren’t disputed.
Anyway, the rules above and below are subject to change, ask in group when you join, if in doubt*.
- Terms and conditions apply.
Talk about the new generation, a bunch of useless spoiled brats is what they are.
Gone are the times where you actually had to be a good and useful player to get IN the group in the first place and if you were caught slacking, you’d be booted out in no time.
Now we invite these useless characters which get about 10x-20x their normal solo exp, while all they do is pick their nose and dictate demands while we get to waste mana and time just to carry them around.
And we have to deal with this why ? Because they provide us with a better chance to pop T3 gems ?
Who birthed this foul idea in the first place ?
First we criticize ideas that let newbies use fastruns to areas they don’t know, so that they God forbid, get something the easy way, and then we have this contraption, where due to lack of players on the mud, leaders of top-end exp groups are forced to invite those clueless or at best useless people in to sponge around, so that the group gets a better chance to get something, that it should be getting in the first place.
I get it, mob levels and size just don’t cut it anymore, since nearly all of us, who aren’t completely clueless have access to charms that can destroy a 100mil mob in a matter of seconds, heck, even 500mil mobs aren’t safe from people soloing them anymore, so we can’t let them those people be popping T3 gems left and right, right ?
But what do newbies have to do with any of this ? They have NO place in top end groups like these, this experience will only destroy any desire for them to solo or form groups at their level. The balance is just isn’t there, the exp they will get solo or forming low level groups will be so low compared to what they had before, that it kills any demand for those activities.
Now, you didn’t really have that problem before, because no-one really wanted newbies in their groups because it’s a hassle to carry them around and it slows down the group. In one topic we have Taron asking for fastruns to boost exp/s rates and then we have him lugging around newbies who are always slow to respond, constantly need spell-ups, heals and raises that use people’s mana and force regens, but i get it gems are gems and if we can’t get them any other way, we have to make sacrifices.
This mud is being turned inside out.
Actually, I could get better exp at 2x20, than in BH groups (40-3x30, on the other hand..). Maybe there are different groups and different newbie knowledge level, but I agree that newbies might be content with the exp they are getting and t1s. The newbie, who refused to join for not being able to call a T3, was an experienced mudder.
Also, given the dropout level of newbies (Darana, Sparkles/Dedsune and countless newbies Zuzu and I have mentored in and off groups), giving a rare and valuable t3 gem to them is like tossing a bean on the ground and hoping it’ll sprout.
In this case, however, the newb had a tri40 main that plays on and off, so I had less qualms with giving him the Rhodo.
So, I wonder, should we be content with RNG and let newbies get T3s and just do as immorts envisioned, let it be as a random bonus to exp, or treat it as a resource, similar to exp/gold?
In my opinion, gems are more of a resource that can be sold, used and traded, than a random useless bonus.
As for newbies, it’s another topic completely.
For one, we let them socialize and see how the MUD works at higher levels. It gives them something to look forward to.
If they get a pop or exp, this might give them something they can’t get on their own, which should boost their morale and, maybe, let them play with us a bit longer.
For example, on another mud, I couldn’t get into end-game groups, because I’d die immediately, so I need about 2-3 months of play time to get there - and that’s just the start of the endgame. So I had to publicly ask about what ppl do and imagine and assume something. It’s not as good as following a group for an hour.
MUD IS TURNING INSIDE OUT?! - Only such with a pious deception.
Let’s all take a step back and unwind.
If the consensus lingers around the threads of “contribution” solely based for the purpose of producing T3 Gems, then there can be no valid argument(s) based on a lvl20 as to a 6x40 as mentioned. No they are not “useless”, they are little tiny players like you/me also, once upon a time.
Simply because a lvl 20 called a T3 Gem and by sheer luck produced what I gather to be a Rhodochrosite and by the outcome of it - only shows what this “generation” of players think.
GRATZ to whoever received the gem! Woohoo, good haul! When I returned to this Sloth version, Shyla hooked me up in one of her Mystica groups on Lyme and asked me what would I like to call. Of course returning and catching up with so many people at one go, she got me to call the Rose Quartz(T3). 4-5 mobs later, it popped and everyone congratulated with me being clueless to what is happening. ALL AT LEVEL ONE. What more could I ask for? I stayed on, caught up with the Sloth family and eventually hit 9x40.
Unfortunately I can’t say the same with how the players reacted this time but sorry if you do read this gem receiver - I hope you do stay and continue to have fun minus this burn.
- From my perspective, it was simple really : Lack of communication.
Players spend a lot of time in groups doing whatever their class or act plays out. A lvl 20 decides to join, sees no Rhodo called and tries his luck at it. 10 minutes into play his call came about. Here is where everyone spams group to check gjobs, though every individual knows for a fact they did not call it hoping they did. Some might even argue they forgot to update their gjob because someone else had called it but left the group. Players feel unjust for their “contribution” in this endless tirade VS a 10 minute participating lvl 20 for receiving his call. Whose fault? Go figure.
I spoke to Taron briefly since he was very persistent for a solution, being the leader he is, and only concluded that I personally do not agree with all this “restrictions”. This ordeal of course is not new and it all typically ends up with the leader themselves acting on it whether it being good or bad. Understandably how this turned out, it seems to be on the looming side of bad. Hmm, maybe that’s why I stopped leading.
It is really sad to see how this turned out. I for one brought an old high school mate of mine to play but only to read this and have him consider to even join a group and if not at all.
Oh Well! , Hmmph!
Regards,
Dr
I frequently call diamonds when I’m in a large group even though my gear isn’t good enough to justify permanently socketing a diamond rune to it. I’d feel fine if the group leader or avatar took the call from me before it happened and gave me the opportunity to call something else. I’ve never seen one pop, so no harm so far.
I think it’s over the top to exclude low level characters from calling specific gems and having them go randomly instead. Different group leaders tend to do different things with uncalled items and I would think it would be nice for new players to have a shot at calling something nice rather than have the leader pocket and auction or give it to their nth alt or storage character.
Well, yesterday a 20lev was calling a t1/t2 and got a t2 from a random and no one bat an eye.
As for Shyla’s groups, just yday I was told a story:
She made sure everyone got a random gem by allowing only one random gem per person - there were so much more gems, that one could reliably get a 2nd gem from a random.
I mean, there’s no argument that current gem pop rates are very much lower and their distribution is different.
Though I do think that this whole argument is restricting on newbies. I mean, anyone can use any gem, for the most part, or trade/sell it. It’s much easier to buy a t3 from a newbie, than from the one, who only wants a Colorless Sapphire for it.
So far, I think there’s no harm if sub 3x40s call t2s.
Klobber, if an uncalled t3 gem doesnt go to a newbie, it is randomed among all avatars. I haven’t seen a leader take an uncalled t3 gem for himself without wheeling, really.
If anyone wants to tell me newbies need to call tier 3 gems, please enlighten me on why and how we should remove or separate the amount of mobs we kill in an equation that defines how many gems we pop per day. Or dare suggest we shouldn’t aim to pop more gems.
P.S. For the purposes of grouping, Klobber and Kirei are considered tri40 and 4x40 respectively.
Dragoth wrote: Talk about the new generation, a bunch of useless spoiled brats is what they are.
Gone are the times where you actually had to be a good and useful player to get IN the group in the first place and if you were caught slacking, you’d be booted out in no time.
Now we invite these useless characters which get about 10x-20x their normal solo exp, while all they do is pick their nose and dictate demands while we get to waste mana and time just to carry them around.
And we have to deal with this why ? Because they provide us with a better chance to pop T3 gems ?
…
This is most terrible speech I ever heard on this forum, and from you in particular.
You are terribly wrong, my friend.
If you treat them nice and friendly - they will remember it and come back, eventually learn the game and stay.
If you treat them like that above - they leave, forever.
How can you complain that there is few newcomers when you behave agressively insocial, repulsively?
Thankfully you are only one with opinion like that.
You need to evolve to the next level some day - think about common good and what can you do to make it happen, even if you lose some part of your personal gain, because in the end its a win-win.
Be social. It is what keeps many people return again and again, and stay, despite they have a huge lot of things to do elsewhere.
Community is golden, that is what matters.
I personally think Taron did exactly what any good leader would have done, a person called an item which was not called, nobody complained, it popped and he honored that.
Nice job!
And yes, we purposely raised gem pop rates to make sure that newer players were not excluded from groups. It wasn’t that long ago where new players were never invited into groups. Now there is a huge reason to invite them and I think its extremely beneficial in actually maintaining a player base. All it takes is one good group and some nice people to make a lifer out of a new player…
Splork, while I agree that newbie players can get into large groups to have fun, there are other factors, too:
20lev characters contribute way, way less, than avatar chars - sometimes even 0
20lev characters actually require time, effort and mana spent to keep alive or raise
the situation where we absolutely must have newbies in groups is driven by low MUD population and t3 gem poprate adjustments
newbies still get loads of exp (thanks to total levels) and gold w/o effort on their part.
In short, mathematically, having newbies in groups is like spending your time to give them your own exp and gold without any contribution on their part. I am not sure this is the intention of grouping with newbies.
That being said, personally, I like more ppl in groups, because its the communication that makes the game fun - most newbies are silent, though. But I’d rather have newbies group on valk/BH to hone their skills on easier mobs, where they can solve their own challenges. This way, they:
already know what to do in large groups and don’t require babysitting
can keep themselves alive by using sanc, spectrals, spell shield or actively asking for them or by using sidhe charms.
If you feed them exp, gold, eq and gems without any effort from their part, this is what makes the game uninteresting and makes people leave.
After all, what keeps them here is the interesting game stuff and a community, not just gold or eq.
As for gems, if imms fix this by counting group total levels, not the number of ppl, I’ll ask less newbies to join, because I need to focus on leading groups, not introducing new players to grouping, while leading. However, I’m totally for inviting new players to groups, so they can see the end game or at least a part of it, and get the “omg, we are killing a huge fiery DRAGON!” feeling, as long as someone like Zuzu holds their hand and spells them up beforehand w/o a leader instructing and waiting for all that.
Good summary, all of which most of us already know :lol:
Quote: If you feed them exp, gold, eq and gems without any effort from their part, this is what makes the game uninteresting and makes people leave.
I would say that our 25 year history might prove this to be incorrect. Hundreds upon hundreds of players have been spoon fed one way or another to become long-time contributors to our player base. I remember players helping me 20 years ago to achieve my first 36 levels. They gave me everything you said here such as gold, exp, and equipment and it still happens today. I know because I sit up here and watch it. By them helping me reach level 36 and restoration, I quickly became an important part of any group which was created.
I can, with 100% certainty, tell you that this type of helping does indeed contribute positively to players staying. Giving a new player any help with any of the previously mentioned items is more apt to cause them to continue playing than to push them out the door. Don’t get me wrong, I believe there needs to be balance…
It has become less frequent, mostly because our player base has shrunk and the game has changed quite a bit.
Either way, all I was pointing out is that our community of players is what normally helps get players hooked and thats because we have always been an extremely helpful game in terms of new players.
If we agree that dragging newbies in huge groups leaves them helpless to:
run to any area
solo well
do their own CR later on, etc,
then why do we condone and encourage this behavior?
If you want newbies to get engaged, let’s significantly raise tier 1 gem poprate on valk for groups of 2+ - and make it scale w/ present group members, so that some experienced players start playing and leading some groups on valk, rather than impose the newbie care on off-valk leaders.
That being said, there is little to kill on valk for a group of 3+ 3x20s, so I’m not sure how it’ll work out.
Again, I am usually fine w/ letting newbies in my groups, but if I spend my time/mana on them, it carves into everyone’s exp. If it does, ppl enjoy groups a little bit less. I’d rather people enjoy groups more, if newbies join, not less. How about we work on that?
Gem pop rates will not be changing, unless they get lower.
Quote: If we agree that dragging newbies in huge groups leaves them helpless to:
run to any area
solo well
do their own CR later on, etc,
I never agreed to any of this, not sure where this is even coming from.
Adding a newbie to a group every now and again certainly isn’t cramping anyone’s style or ruining anyone’s exp. Thats rediculous, most leaders know what groups a lowbie can be dragged in and what groups they can’t be…period.
Again, I’ll bow out of this thread now. I didn’t realize that stating you did the right thing in regards to the gem pop was going to stir your inner energies this much.
Continue on
Taron wrote: But I’d rather have newbies group on valk/BH to hone their skills on easier mobs, where they can solve their own challenges. This way, they:
already know what to do in large groups and don’t require babysitting
can keep themselves alive by using sanc, spectrals, spell shield or actively asking for them or by using sidhe charms.
We’ve also discussed earlier how only grouping with BH exp groups makes newbies group-reliant and not know anything until tri40. I thought this was a well-known fact. If this isn’t something you know, then you might not be the all-knowing god.
Splork wrote: Good summary, all of which most of us already know :lol:
the above led me to believe we were on the same page.
Right now, newbies must be actively invited and dragged into all kinds of groups, including Dragon Mountain, Positive Plane (drakes throw winds randomly) or Archfiend, if we want to pop T3 gems.
As I said earlier, if the leader takes his time managing newbies instead of running the group, the kill time suffers, which lowers the exp. If a group spends time and mana on spelling up several newbies, it eats away at their run. It’s a simple exp/minute equation really (I can provide you some data-based math if you want). Did I mention newbies also take exp without providing anything but entertainment value and a very small t3 gem pop chance?