Drachma eq is a bit of a mess, although there are perfectly crafted and priced items players love, there are also a lot of items not being purchased because they are too expensive or worse than in game eq.
In the past there have been drachma eq overhauls, and normally an immortal has been assigned the unenviable task of completing this… unfortunately it turns out to be a massive amount of work, mistakes are often made and the immortal must survive the ensuing crap storm afterwards.
It’s time to get collaborative! Here is my idea… I think for a time there should be a public submissions database on the website… these items should be able to be entered into a separate eq list. Suggestions can be submitted by players along with there reasons and thinking. Everyone can comment and rubbish the names, spelling, stats and ideas that everyone else has submitted. People can “like” which ideas are the best. At the end of a certain period, an immortal approves the best ideas and the items are entered. The eq list is first loaded with the current list of items, so all the mistakes can be pointed out.
After the items are created, there is an amnesty period where players can exchange their pieces at cost price… and the issue is solved. No one can whine, because everyone is responsible.
Tomorrow, peace in the middle east… :twisted:
That’s a good idea, though I don’t see Breeze creating a form for eq items with comments from scratch.
Maybe if he can hack a custom content type himself in WordPress.
I could do it in Drupal, but I need to fix my own Drupal install first.
That being said, I already made a Google Spreadsheet with edit access via the link:
If someone starts to screw around, we’ll have to use email access.
How it works:
enter your eq idea and why you think it’s a good item, how it fits in the current eq/classo thing
if you want to comment, right-click on the contents of the “why” field, “Add comment” and do your thing
if there is a comment to the item, just reply to it.
If possible, be logged in Google at the time of your edit, so we know who’s who (I assume that’s how it works, anyway).
Teron wrote: That’s a good idea, though I don’t see Breeze creating a form for eq items with comments from scratch.
Maybe if he can hack a custom content type himself in WordPress.
if you notice there are not very many places for user input into the website.
besides the eqlist search block, any other user input is via links using integers.
that was not an accident :)
Teron wrote: —snip—
If possible, be logged in Google at the time of your edit, so we know who’s who (I assume that’s how it works, anyway).
if you expand it to all types of eq, then if an immortal needs an idea for a new piece of eq they can use your list.
Breeze wrote: if you expand it to all types of eq, then if an immortal needs an idea for a new piece of eq they can use your list.
Sure, why not.
I’d appreciate feedback from immortals for eq ideas, so we don’t spend our time fine tuning an idea that won’t get accepted.
Thanks.
I’ve sent Taron an extracted list of all the current drachma eq items.
I urge all players to contribute, debate, and most of all be sensible…
I am going to update this thread from time to time, with some reports and facts about the current drachma sets to get you thinking, I have the stats in a database so I can run queries and feedback interesting facts to get you all thinking…
FACT 1… “There is no drachma eq with spell saves.”
Any chance an imm could release publicly all cap information?
It would be REALLY helpful.
Also, immorts could share the stats on how many of each drachma eq were bought over the years.
Apparently Gorka wants not only to suggest new ideas, but to fix the old ones.
Thanks.
Things are progressing…
I’ve extracted a list of drachma items from the eqlist.
Breeze contributed to Taron a log of “transactions” from the drachma vendors.
I’ve compiled all this information into a spreadsheet and sent to Taron for publishing.
You will be surprised… as it turns out, nearly every drachma item has been purchased, however in working with this data I don’t have full confidence in it’s accuracy… and it’s completely possible some items may have been “test purchased” by immortals. Items have also changed over time, but kept there original name which means we don’t know what exact revision of the item a person got. There are abnormalities and strange things in this data, but overall it’s valuable in the sense of the objective.
FACT 2… “About 3500 Oct Tokens have been purchased” - proving that a large proportion of drachma is essentially “wasted” by frustrated players.
FACT 3… “About 50% of drachma items account only for 10% of sales… (Tokens and potions excluded)”
A few months ago I broke down all the drachma eq items into stats and drachma values. I then created an index using the min, max and avg prices of stats to produce a guideline of roughly how much stats are worth in drachma… I then had to interpret this data and came up with this…
500 Drachma: DAM, HANDDAM, MAX_DEX
400 Drachma: MANA_REGEN
250 Drachma: MAX_INT, MAX_CON, MAX_STR, MAX_WIS, REDUCE_DAM, UNDEAD_CONTROL, CHARISMA, WEAPON_DAM
200 Drachma: INT, CON, STR, DEX, WIS
125 Drachma: HP_REGEN
40 Drachma: SPELL_BONUS, HEAL_BONUS, MV_REGEN, STABDAM, CIRCLEDAM
30 Drachma: MANA, HP
15 Drachma: MOVE
This pricing is only a guideline, I say again… it is only a guideline, but it’s roughly accurate to how the current drachma items are priced.
You forgot ac
What about ac value? around 500 too?
Though the ac robe and the -1.4 helm differ a lot.
Yes, I left out AC for a reason. :lol: It’s the most difficult and wildly varying index, because essentially most items are priced for there other stats, and the AC is not really factored into the value of the item by design, as it’s often regular. (In fact AC is not considered an “AFFECT” in the eq structure, its a “VALUE” which means there is almost a separation of ideas here.) Of course there are a couple of items… the knights robe and the warrior helmet. But these are misleading and in the case of the helmet overpriced, but they do suggest that a net effect -0.1 on AC is priced in around 300-500 drachma per point. More closer to 500 than 300, to be fair to how MAX_DEX is priced.
I’d suggest that we don’t calculate prices using an AC value, unless the item introduces a net effect of -0.1 better than in game eq, then I’d suggest it’s priced at around 400 drachma+ (I’m taking the Knights Robe price and MAX_DEX as a middle position here.)
This creates a conflict with MAX_DEX which was priced in at 500 drachma… but of course there is not a single item with MAX_DEX that increases your AC by the full -0.5 because all the items have lower AC and the net effect is often only -0.1 higher than an existing in game eq item… A MAX_DEX clasp for instance is probably worth 2000-2500 drachma, but in most current items is only worth 300-500 because the net effect is only -0.1.
The other thing to note is the game has changed with goblets and blue potions. In my opinion AC and Mana Regen are no longer as valuable as they once were, this is not being reflected in some old drachma items.
Hope you understand my points… Overall I think AC is a incorrect way to price items… unless it’s the best ac in game. Non consequential AC points probably have a value around 75-100 drachma according to my index in the cases where it’s obvious the AC value is a major contributor to the items value.
For example…
a -2.4 body or less… I’d add 0 drachma for that. It’s in game.
a -2.5 body… I’d add 100 drachma for that. It’s in game but it’s elite.
a -2.6 body… This ac replaces a 3x40 choice, that’s extra value…
a -2.7 body… Well… that’s an entirely different equation all together!
Remember this is only a guide…
Here is some examples of how you could use my guide to suggest a drachma value for an item… lets say you had these in mind…
-0.5 WRIST with +1 WEAPON_DAM.
The highest ac wrist with damage is currently -0.2, the -0.5 does not exceed the max ac of wrist items in the game. So effectively the price of this item is 3 x -0.1 REGULAR AC CHARGE + WEAPON_DAM CHARGE.
(3 x 100) + (1 x 250) = 550 +/- Drachma.
-0.7 ARMS with +3 WEAPON_DAM.
The highest ac arms is currently -0.9. This basically makes the cost of the item 3 weapon dam charges…
(3 x 250) = 750 +/- Drachma
-0.5 ROBE with +2 MANA REGEN + 1 MAX_INT
The ac value of this robe is no extra value, only the 1 mana regen point is chargable on regular items and the MAX_INT…
(1 x 400) + (1 x 250) = 650 +/- Drachma
Adding HP’s, MP’s, MV’s, +1 HIT, SPELL_SAVE can make a price that little bit more attractive if it seems high.
Sooo hard :)
I tried to handle with AC.
While speaking of pure AC things are quite clear.
I created a formula for AC and tested it on robes.
For -0.6 robe i’ve got price of 405 drachmas.
For -0.7 robe 1280 drachmas.
For -0.8 robe 3125 drachmas.
For -0.5 robe it adds 80 drachmas.
For -0.4 robe it adds 5 drachmas.
For worse AC robes it should be substraction from price for AC penalty, but i’m not sure in numbers.
But, trying to handle other bonuses it become much more complex.
I tried to calculate price for -1.4 helm with my formula, considering price of 250 for max_stat and 100 for -saves.
Also, i was considering the difficulty of getting ingame eq (well, manually, hard to deal with it too).
So, best AC ingame helm is -1.3 +max_con -saves. Difficulty of getting it is quite low.
I got a price for -1.4 helm = 95 drachma.
It looks reasonable for me, because i won’t trade my robert’s hat to -1.4 even for 95 dr.
I calculated a price for -1.5 helm and got 970 drachmas.
Well, it looks… interesting. May be 970 is even too high price, not sure.
The problem is that ingame helm is too good.
I’d say this +max_con should be not +250 drachma, but multiply to AC price somehow.
There is huge difference between -1.2 +max_con and -1.3 +max_con or -1.2 +max_con and -1 +max_con.
The value of max_con changes high because of AC.
So, for -1.3 helm the value of max_con might be more than 250 and for worse items it could be less than 250.
Well, talking about mythical -0.8 robe for 3125 drachmas.
-0.8 +max_con definetely shouldn’t be 3125+250 = 3375 drachmas.
I’d say it should be about 6-12k drachmas :)
P.S. I understand it’s unreal eq and unreal prices, it’s just an example to make things more clear.
I’d be interested to see your formula Z, please share…
You do raise a valid point though… the value of drachma eq is proportional to how much better it is than in game eq. With the invention of the Roberts Hat, the drachma warrior helms have effectively been downgraded in value.
Using my formula for your -0.8 + MAX_CON robe…
It’s 3 AC points over in game eq at about 500 each plus your MAX_CON at 250, so about 1750 drachma.
This is actually achievable in the context of rebirths.
My formula is Price = 5*(-(AC-(best_ingame_AC+0,2))*10)^4.
It works only for good AC items, at least +0.2 AC from best ingame.
For no/low AC items there should be different formula.
1750 drachmas is too cheap price for -0.8 +max_con robe.
1750 is quite easy to achieve and this robe shouldn’t be in game at all :)
Btw, if we can find acceptable trade courses for stats in AC points we can use my formula.
For example, 1 dex = 1 con = -0.06 AC.
MAX_CON = -0.1 AC, MAX_DEX = -0.45 AC
So, -0.5 +dex/con robe will cost 195 drachma.
-0.5 +max_con robe will cost like -0.6 robe - 405 drachmas.
-0.2 +max_dex robe will cost 750 drachmas.
We can change courses to get another results, but the idea is to get every tank item to poor AC and calculate price by AC formula.
Z, for a formula to be judged as “good” it needs to “more a less” replicate the status quo. The difference between your formula and mine is that mine uses actual avg values based on current drachma eq and is therefore “more in tune” with current pricing, well yours comes in low for small ac and insanely high for high ac (because your formula has an exponential component - ^).
I mentioned at the start, a collaborative solution would need to be sensible. I doubt the immortals are going to be interested in implementing a bunch of max_ac items that totally depart from the normal. Drachma eq tends to run somewhere between in game eq and 3x40 eq in stat and prices. I think we would be wise to stick with this groove.
This in my opinion is an opportunity for players to ensure that at sometime along there player careers it’s at least possible to cap in there favorite stats. I’m not sure it’s much else. We need to be careful we don’t erode the projects credibility. The reason I started to talk about pricing, was to provide a basis to players who will take things to extremes. It’s not productive for us to go there.
Let’s compare our formulas on pure AC eq:
Walls of Jericho -1.3 +3hpr +20flail dam, best ingame -1.2 (hard to get)
real price: 690, by your formula: 100(?), by my formula: 405 (+bonus for difficulty).
an adamantite-plated knight’s war robe -0.6
real price: 350, by your formula: 500, by my formula: 405
Well, not too many pure AC items here.
Let’s get some dex, con, max_dex, max_con items, because we both can calculate it now.
First of all, helm.
There is an Olthoi Great Helm in eq list -1.5 +3 resfire
real price: 1100, by your formula it should be 750, by my new formula: 405.
The helm gets -0.2 AC and loses max_con. By your formula it’s +2*500 -250 = 750 drachmas.
By my new formula, where i count 1 max_con as -0.1 AC, it’s 405.
I didn’t count -saves in both cases.
So, both our formulas differs from real price a lot here.
Redsteel Legplates of Hades -1.7 +max_con
real price: 600, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405
Hiddenite-Encrusted Guards: -0.4 +max_dex
real price: 800, G-formula: 250?, Z-formula: 80
It also looks like the price for -0.5 +max_dex in your formula will be 250 too.
Well, max_dex is special stat, let’s ignore it yet.
amethyst-inlaid mithril bracers of the Dwarf Lords -0.8 +max_con
real price: 370, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405
a dwarven robe of stoutness/an elven cloak of agility -0.5 +con/dex
real price: 150, G-formula: 200, Z-formula: 195
I’d say my formula replicate the status quo even better than your, while both formulas have some problems and needs to be improved.
Also, it shows some problems with current pricing, i definetely not going to pay 800 drachma for Hiddenite-Encrusted Guards to trade max_con (on my -0.8 +max_con guards) for -0.1 AC.
Just noticed u count -0.1 AC as 500 drachma, not 100, fixed calculations above.
Well, actually, our formulas looks similiar with not too OP items.
With this eq the difference is only at cost of AC/stats.
Your point of AC costs 500, mine 405, your point of max_con costs 250, mine 405.
The real difference will be at ultimate eq, not sure it’s even implemented :)
But i’m pretty sure the price should raise exponentially.
AC is only priced at about 100 drachma, if the item eq is as good as top in game eq. AC is priced at about 500 for each AC point the item goes over established norms.
Zlodiak wrote: Let’s compare our formulas on pure AC eq:
Walls of Jericho -1.3 +3hpr +20flail dam, best ingame -1.2 (hard to get)
real price: 690, by your formula: 100(?), by my formula: 405 (+bonus for difficulty).
Incorrect, 500 + drachma for 20 flail (Probably + 100) + drachma for 3HP Regen
Zlodiak wrote: an adamantite-plated knight’s war robe -0.6
real price: 350, by your formula: 100, by my formula: 405
Incorrect, 500 by my formula.
Zlodiak wrote: There is an Olthoi Great Helm in eq list -1.5 +3 resfire
real price: 1100, by your formula it should be, hmm, -50 or something? :), by my new formula: 405.
Incorrect, 1000 by my formula + Drachma for Resist Fire.
Zlodiak wrote: Redsteel Legplates of Hades -1.7 +max_con
real price: 600, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405
Incorrect, 350 by my formula.
Zlodiak wrote: Hiddenite-Encrusted Guards: -0.4 +max_dex
real price: 800, G-formula: 250?, Z-formula: 80
Incorrect, 500 by my formula.
Zlodiak wrote: amethyst-inlaid mithril bracers of the Dwarf Lords -0.8 +max_con
real price: 370, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405
Incorrect, 350 by my formula.
Zlodiak wrote: a dwarven robe of stoutness/an elven cloak of agility -0.5 +con/dex
real price: 150, G-formula: 200, Z-formula: 195
Correct! :shock:
It must be noted that robes are normally the best value items. The formula’s are only to provide guidelines. Using guidelines makes it possible to compare one item against another fairly. I never suggested that the formula would decide the exact price and that was final. AC is overpriced with Goblets these days.
Taron has updated the spreadsheet! Slowly things come together…
<LINK_TEXT text=“https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … sp=sharing”>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ufWy039_Pguog7cNETf7oVxuPNeyRYfRd-pYQKhswRs/edit?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>
Taron has added the current drachma eq items in a second sheet. I will flag items that are not much better than in game eq next.
I’ve also kicked us off with some new sensible item suggestions, based on warrior eq of course… I’m hardly going to suggest bard eq am I… Sochi/Oboe, where are you?
Bring on the flames retards! :twisted:
Don’t count on goblets or potions in your calculations. They are subject to nerfing. Goblet should prolly be nerfed down to 1 AC instead of 2 and durations cut back on several pots.
Personally I’m still not even sure what the role of drachma eq should be. I’m not a big fan of the idea that the best AC or best hand dam, etc is acquired thru drachma. I’d kinda rather see that the AC, handdam, dam, in drachma shop is comparable to available forges but with some kind of additional bonus. I know that’s not the case currently. It’s just my 2 cents.
Good news, these goblets are just insane :)
I’d like the idea to have drachma eq as alternate effects eq with similiar to ingame eq power.
But looks like there is no way to rework it (at least in short duration) without making lots of ppl unhappy or raise the inflation drastically, because we need to nerf drachma eq or to improve ingame eq to drachma eq level. Well, or both of it.
But, we can live with current role of drachma eq, after all we need elite currency for elite eq.
So, fixing existing eq and adding new eq sounds good.
Ingame eq has been slowing improving tho and will continue to. I’ve mentioned this many times that I don’t feel that builders should be constrained by what is in the drachma shop when they want to create a new forge item. If we have to occasionally revalue the drach gear because it’s relative value has changed so be it. Thanks Gorka, Taron, Kid and whoever else is in on the discussions. I’m glad someone is attacking it and I’m happy to implement the changes when you have some concensus on what you want. Ideally Tox would weigh in, look at it when you’re done, as I think he was the last person to tackle it as a project.
One other idea I had about how drach gear could be effectively used, is adding large numbers of items in a similar category at the same time, without having to do the work of building new areas, making new forges, etc.
For example, lets say there were a whole shop full of different drachma lights or a whole shop full of drachma clasps that modify different saves or apply diff resists on different slots. It’s a pragmatic solution to adding content, cuz the builder just makes a wide array of this stuff and the players decide what’s worth using, like when I threw all those new avatar lights ingame.
And another way to do it is to open the Amazing Gnomish Design Workshop, where players can:
buy an ac base for an item
buy affects
adding to the same effect costs 10% more
additional (3d, 4th) effects cost 20% more.
This would close two problems:
the need to draw and discuss new EQ ideas from players/imms
the need for various and versatile drachma items.
Of course, there should be a mechanism to cap it, like the total amount of power in an item, e.g. based on the level and ac of the base, which is different for each class. I’ve drafted an initial suggestion, but I need Gorka’s points info to create a spreadsheet prototype. And time. I need more time.
Since this opens a huge drachma sink for players, they’ll be more inclined to be reborn to get more unique, customized drachma eq.
Of course, the same shop can craft ingame EQ for gold from ingame cps, but it’s another story.