Another special feature i just noticed.
<838hp 519ma 286mv>deathblow
You brutally gut a skeletal gate guard!
A skeletal gate guard looks down in terror as its curdled blood pours to the ground!
A skeletal gate guard is dead! R.I.P.Report: Armor:[36%] Wraithform:[55%] Dodged:[9%]
exa corpse
get coins corpse
Total exp for kill is 1645202.
Your blood freezes as you hear a skeletal gate guard’s death cry.
<788hp 531ma 241mv><[-170]md>
Even in a skeletal gate guard’s shape, a skeletal gate guard avoids your slash.
<788hp 531ma 241mv>Dodge expired!
You massacre a skeletal gate guard to small fragments with your slash.
A banshee massacres a skeletal gate guard to small fragments with her hit.
A banshee massacres a skeletal gate guard to small fragments with her claw.
A banshee massacres a skeletal gate guard to small fragments with her claw.
A banshee massacres a skeletal gate guard to small fragments with her hit.
A skeletal gate guard is dead! R.I.P.Report: Armor:[27%] Wraithform:[55%] Dodged:[9%]
exa corpse
get coins corpse
You received 1125513 experience points.
Your blood freezes as you hear a skeletal gate guard’s death cry.
You sing another verse of ‘gods of war’.
<790hp 532ma 248mv>Dodge expired!
You massacre a skeletal warrior to small fragments with your slash.
A banshee massacres a skeletal warrior to small fragments with her hit.
A banshee misses a skeletal warrior with her claw.
A banshee massacres a skeletal warrior to small fragments with her claw.
A banshee misses a skeletal warrior with her hit.
A banshee massacres a skeletal warrior to small fragments with her claw.
A banshee massacres a skeletal warrior to small fragments with her claw.
A wraith massacres a skeletal warrior to small fragments with its claw.
A skeletal warrior is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
A massive Ju-Ju Zombie brutally massacres a skeletal warrior with its hit.
A skeletal warrior is dead! R.I.P.Report: Armor:[38%] Wraithform:[50%]
exa corpse
get coins corpse
You received 1527750 experience points.
You have redeemed yourself!
Your blood freezes as you hear a skeletal warrior’s death cry.
<759hp 542ma 262mv>deathblow
You brutally gut a skeletal warrior!
A skeletal warrior looks down in terror as its curdled blood pours to the ground!
A skeletal warrior is dead! R.I.P.Report: Armor:[18%] Wraithform:[55%]
exa corpse
get coins corpse
Total exp for kill is 1878520.
Your blood freezes as you hear a skeletal warrior’s death cry.
<552hp 550ma 172mv><—76—:286:>
You brutally gut a wight prison guard!
A wight prison guard looks down in terror as its curdled blood pours to the ground!
A wight prison guard is dead! R.I.P.Report: Armor:[47%] Wraithform:[27%]
exa corpse
get coins corpse
Total exp for kill is 2513666.
Your blood freezes as you hear a wight prison guard’s death cry.
<650hp 389ma 104mv>You miss a wight prison guard with your slash.
A banshee massacres a wight prison guard to small fragments with her hit.
A banshee massacres a wight prison guard to small fragments with her claw.
A banshee massacres a wight prison guard to small fragments with her claw.
A wight prison guard is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
A banshee viciously massacres a wight prison guard with her hit.
A wight prison guard is dead! R.I.P.Report: Armor:[31%] Wraithform:[62%] Dodged:[8%]
exa corpse
get coins corpse
You received 2077797 experience points.
Your blood freezes as you hear a wight prison guard’s death cry.
A banshee falls quiet.
A banshee falls quiet.
A massive Ju-Ju Zombie grows a little, as it gobbles up the corpse of a wight prison guard.
get coins
A massive Ju-Ju Zombie spits out gold coins.
A massive Ju-Ju Zombie utters the words, ‘candusgugh qare’
================================================================
**
Since necromancers primarily rely on their pets to get exp, why do pets give you 25% less exp when they kill the target ? As you can see, even Juju has this awesome ability to steal your exp**
I admit to being a little out of the loop. I’m trying to catch up.
But are you telling me that necro’s now get experience when their pets get the kill? If that is the case, it’s not a 25 percent decrease, it’s a 75 percent increase. I’m shocked that they would give this, more shocked that a necro would complain about it.
I clearly must be misunderstanding. Please straighten me out.
You are, obviously, out of the “loop”.
Summon undead is a necromancer’s prime ability, as much as a backstab is a thieves prime ability. A necromancer without undeads, is just a lame ass mage with 50% decrease in spellpower.
By being so patronizing, regarding the issue of me complaining about something, that is so obviously unfair, you only show your ignorance on the issue.
Would you reduce mages experience recieved if he kills something with a firewind?
Would you do the same if druid kills something while he is shapeshifted ?
Why does this surprise you that i’am unhappy about it ?
Since the experience boost, apparently this bug is much more noticeable now. Insomniac brought it to our attention a month or so ago.
Here is where we stand regarding the issue: We spent countless years balancing the Necromancer class while this bug was in place. We had no clue regarding this difference until Insomniac pointed it out to us. We are NOT going to look for this bug, fix this bug, and then try to rebalance the class all over again. It took us years to get to a point where we feel this class is not too overpowered but is overall, pretty well balanced. Maybe, sometime in the future, we will examine the issue closer and figure out exactly what we should do.
When we have time, we will try to figure out where the discrepancy is coming from and go from there.
Splork
It probably comes from the fact that monsters gain experience for killing monsters too, so they steal their share.
Splork, as you know I totally understand that balancing the necromancer class took time and was a matter of carefully weighing up different options etc.
At the same time, there is no balance being maintained by not fixing this bug because:
a) you can kill the mob and not your pets in 90% of cases if you have a skill like deathblow
b) you can kill the mob and not your pets in 90% of cases if you have a spell like firewind/disintegrate/destruction
The only thing that is currently happening because of this bug is that low level necromancers are being punished for being necromancers and higher level necromancers have to work hard to get the full exp they should for their kills.
In other words, fixing this bug would not have any sizeable impact in terms of balance…it is simply a matter of convenience and fairness. (No other class has to work extra just to get the exp they should).
In addition, I have reported other bugs with pets kills, specifically:
In my experience, (I am almost 6X40) I have NEVER seen a gem pop from a kill by pets. I have popped 2-3 gems from the death of my own pets and have popped several gems from 1 non-pet mob killing another non-pet mob. This is despite the fact that until recently, when I became aware of the exp loss from pet kills, the vast majority of my kills were made by my pets.
Pet kills on mobs that give honor occasionally result in the bulk of honor points being lost (i.e. 250 honor mob gives 30 honor instead).
I know you guys are busy and I am not suggesting that these bugs are the most important thing to spend your time on, however if someone does want to fix them, I’m reporting them here, for the record.
Thanks for making S4 a cool MUD to play.
I’m still blown away by the fact that pet kills give you xp now. When did that happen?
I don’t think you’re getting the Dragoth. The class was balanced out over the course of years, with this ‘bug/feature’ in place. Therefore there is no unfairness. Changing it would simply be a big bonus for necro for no good reason.
Even as clueless as I am, I can see that.
juggleblood wrote: I don’t think you’re getting the Dragoth. Changing it would simply be a big bonus for necro for no good reason.
I don’t think you’re clueless at all, Juggleblood but I’m afraid you’re really the one not getting it. For most savvy necros, this bug isn’t something that stops them from getting full exp, it’s just something that makes it awkward for them to do so. Fixing this bug would NOT have a big impact on necro exping for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.
Ive already discussed this with you Insomniac and my opinion is not going to change.
I disagree with your guesstimate of 90% and firmly believe we are making the right decision by not looking into the matter at this time. Our energies are being spent on issues which are much more important than improving the solo exp of the necromancer class. Which by just about everyone's opinion, does not need to happen.
We appreciate the bugs being reported and plan on looking into the ones mentioned.
Splork
Ive tested the issue regarding necromancer followers and gems not popping. I set the rate for gem pops to 1/1. The followers killed the mob, and the gem loaded, as it should.
A short log is below, the line at the very end is my debugging to make sure we are inside the correct generate_gem function, which we were.
order polt kill pea
Ok.
A poltergeist massacres a peasant to small fragments with its pound.
A peasant is dead! R.I.P.
You received 446 experience points.
Your blood freezes as you hear a peasant’s death cry.
A lone thunderclap rumbles past as a shiny GEM emerges from the void!!!
IN F******GENERATRE GEM .
This bug seems to be more of an urban legend than reality.
I will look into the honor issue tomorrow.
Splork
Splork wrote: Ive tested the issue regarding necromancer followers and gems not popping. I set the rate for gem pops to 1/1. The followers killed the mob, and the gem loaded, as it should.
A short log is below, the line at the very end is my debugging to make sure we are inside the correct generate_gem function, which we were.
…
This bug seems to be more of an urban legend than reality.
I will look into the honor issue tomorrow.
Splork
Thanks for being awesome and actually testing and showing results of suspected issues and urban legends from players :)
I’m sorry but, Necro class, balanced ? In what universe is necro class balanced ?
The last balancing of necro pet point system took place on 17 september 2009, that is the time when we went from 3 wights being the best pet at 3x40 and only 1 wraith being available for summon at 4x40 and moved back the old slothmud3 system. Since then ( late 2009, early 2010), we had a slight tweak to the pet points awarded per level ( balanced to prime and not prime ) and then there was a tweak to banshees, where they were made worthwhile and had their stats increased slightly to become better than wraiths ( since you could only summon 2 banshees against 4 wraiths)
Since then, there have been numerous complaints on this forum, that any necro pet past banshees and wraiths is a waste of time, so what is the point of leveling a necro when you do not make any worthwhile progress with your primary ability ? Necro class’s selling point for me, is the constant progress with your pets and experimentation with situations in which different pets could be used.
Necro class project is NOT finished and while it may seem balanced, it was simply put on pause 1.5 years ago because immortals stopped caring, and i can see why from your many posts Rick “you get enough exp as it is, so deal with it”. But as i have told you many times before, it’s not about exp , it’s about keeping your players interested by giving them something to look forward to.
Right now, at 4x40 you might as well stop playing your necro, as it’s just going to become a mindless grind for northing afterwards.
And as Insomniac is saying, it’s not a big whoop that our pets steal our exp, but it’s an inconvinience that other classes dont have when they kill something using their main abilities, why should we also get the short end of the stick, because we get good enough exp as it is ?
Your biggest problem is that you are too concerned, about how much experience your players are getting, while in reality, it should be the least of your worries; numerous complaints regarding the game becoming too slow and grindy after 4x40 is an obvious giveaway.
What you should concern yourself with instead, is whether your players are having fun and whether they are involved enough with the game, to log back in every day and make all that time you spent developing this game worthwhile, both for you and your players.
Dragoth, are you serious right now?
Read my posts regarding experience and the changes I/we have made in the last few months. Read my posts regarding kill history, exp bonus days, improving exp by 15% across the board, about improving aged exp, etc. In all seriousness, you have either not been playing the game, not reading the crier, not listening to gossips, or all of the above. Hell, my post regarding 3 more extra bonus days where no kill history will be used was posted BEFORE your post claiming " Your biggest problem is that you are too concerned, about how much experience your players are getting"
Whatever, Its bs posts like this which drives Immortals away.We realize the issues we have and have been addressing them constantly the last year or so. If you don’t want to realize this, and toss out ridiculous comments which are easily proven incorrect, than continue to do so.
In all seriousness, listen:
Complaint: instability, too many reboots
Fix: uptimes are huge, rarely crashes, rare reboots
Complaint: Kill history is too harsh
Fix: several reductions in kill history
Complaint: exp is too slow, sluggish
Fix: several fixes to exp calculator, numerous additions to bonus days, higher group exp rate, exp increases across the board, decrease in kill history
Complaint: stagnant mud, no new areas( 2-3 new areas in all of s4)
Fix: Rita added area, Neptune added area, Idjit added area, Tox has area ready to go in, Akasha has a massive 250 room area ready to go live. Neptune has another area ready to go live
Complaint: not enough Immortal interaction, quests
Fix: 3 area openers recently. 200 drachma worth of quests run. Akasha, Juggleblood, Pbx have all returned
Complaint: Avatar shop and avatar lights have not been addressed
Fix: An awesome avatar shop and an awesome automated Avatar light have been introduced.
Hell, all of these have been added in the last few months. Times are changing, involvement is at an all time high for S4. Join in the fun, stop taking this game as life or death, relax and take a deep breath.
Hell, if Insomniac and I can get along and enjoy conversations with each other, anything can happen.
I could probably go on and on. Yes, we are not able to get everything in but we are doing our best and making some awesome progress lately.
Splork
The real question is has Akasha redone the coliseum yet? :wink: :twisted:
Is the 250 room area Atlantis?
The issue that i raised in this topic is not about me wanting bigger exp, i plainly dont care about it, what i DO care about, however, is being ripped off for something i shouldnt be. If you want to make necro class less powerful or get less exp, then fine - reduce the damage undeads do, or make destruction cost more mana or do less damage, but i object to my prime ability giving me less experience when used correctly. It’s like giving mage prime’s frostbolt a 25% exp penalty every time a mage kills something with it, that is just wrong.
And yes, I do think you care too much about exp, mainly because you say stuff like this " Our energies are being spent on issues which are much more important than improving the solo exp of the necromancer class". And i know for a fact, that this exp concern of yours, is the only thing that keeps bogging down all attempts to make necromancer class complete, with a proper pet advancement system.
Where are the changes to the necromancer pets that were complained about, even a year ago ?
I will say this again, I dont care if i get less exp than anybody else, i dont care that Wimpy could never match Cizin’s exp rate at the same level and i dont care that my 3x40 thief is able to get 50% more exp per hour than my 4x40 avatar Necro. As long as the exp i’m getting is leading me somewhere, which it does not, Read: no prime skill ( in this case pets ) upgrades for the next 160 levels. Yes, the game can be fun because it’s challenging and because there are still a few nice people around, but if all this challenge brings me no rewards, then what is the point of it all.
And, i do play the game when i get some spare time, and i check mud updates and read the forum regularly, but some of the issues have been unresolved for what feels like decades and it makes me wonder.
And would you please stop making me look like the bad guy, which immortal have I ever driven away with my suggestions ? I know i could not possibly drive anyone away, as I have never criticized anyone’s work and i have warm and loving relationships with almost all of Immortal staff, except Juggleblood ( but that guy is a jerk :roll: )
Atlantis would have been 325 rooms if I had finished mobs and eq, but that area is CURSED! CURSED, I tell you!
Thank you very much for checking out of the gem bug. As I was typing this post, I popped my first ever gem from a pet kill so that clears that up :)
In terms of the 90% estimate, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. The bug isn’t one that makes my life hugely difficult so I can live with it.
Since you mention a large number of issues that were raised (I agree with all of those and totally support fixing them as a priority), may I bring up another which I think needs looking at?
I think that elite EQ which can be purchased for drachma could do with a revamp…right now we have about 10-15% of available items ever purchased. What’s more, the vast majority of items currently available were created/designed without taking into account recent changes in the game or in fact the fact that we’re in S4 rather than S3.
As an example, there are a large number of items that provide +Undead control, yet even a prime necromancer can cap UC with ingame EQ only, most of which is easy to obtain. At my levels, I can actually exceed my UC cap with ingame EQ only.
Very, very few current drachma items make use of the fact that we now have maxstats available.
A large number of current elite items are simply not worth it:
Boots of Arcane Lore (440 drachma): 0.4 ac 35 hp (10 hp more than ingame easy forge)
Boots of the Forest Walker (425 drachma): 1 mregen 5 mana (5 mana more than ingame pop)
Black Belt of the Dying Sun (300 drachma): 0.3 dex con (pure junk of an item)
Ring of Radiance (150 drachma): 2mregen 15 mana (2 mana over ingame forge)
These are just a few examples.
In addition, there are a large number of items that, on the face of it, seem pretty decent but nobody ever buys them (because of the 10% of items that are REALLY worth it).
My suggestion would be to assign an immort (I know Tox is interested in this) to draft a list, with player input, of new drachma eq and pricing. Then initiate a transition period of a week or so whereby existing drachma EQ could be traded in for its full price and new eq purchased as normal. At the end of that period you phase out the old eq and reinstate the discount on trading elite eq back into weaver.
If you’re interested about my experience as a necromancer in terms of soloing exp, here is a very brief summary (just ignore if not interested):
level 1-25: nothing special
level 25-40: very good solo exp (get juju + good pets)
level 40-2X40: unreal solo exp (big juju + awesome pets)
3X40-4X40: soloing not really worth it (see logic below)
4X40-6X40: soloing totally ineffective (see logic below)
This is provided PURELY for information purposes…you can believe/not believe me and indeed ignore me.
The reason for this progression of exp is obvious: until about tri-40, the best way of making exp is to kill fat mobs that don’t hurt much and miss a lot. Necro is by far and away the best class for this because you have lots of pets that chop down fat exp mobs like bottle-nosed dolphins (1mil), then moving on to shadowkeep (1.5-2mil), drowsy spiders (3mil) and various mobs in dark dreams.
After tri-40, the only real way to make exp is to do damage faaaast. What’s more, ideally you want to do this damage without using mana. This is why thieves/monks excel at this point in terms of soloing exp - they can grip/stab without using mana and since most of the damage is done before the fight even begins they don’t take a lot of punishment.
As a necro, my damage is done over many rounds and since mobs hit so hard on lyme, I simply take too much damage (i.e. too high mana cost to heal) to make it worthwhile.
Dragoth I’m a jerk for pointing out the obvious that necro’s don’t need a huge experience increase?
You keep saying it’s not about the XP. But that’s exactly what you’re talking about.
Re: Dragoth quote
“And i know for a fact, that this exp concern of yours, is the only thing that keeps bogging down all attempts to make necromancer class complete, with a proper pet advancement system.”
This quote is utter nonsense, to be quite honest with you. Several Immortals, including Chobbs, have/had planned on looking into and redoing the necromancer pets. However, due to the response they have gotten from player, absolutely not me, they simply quit because its not worth their efforts. I’ve done everything from request emails from Wimpy, ask other Immortals to look into the matter, and staying out of the way of anybody who wants to deal with the issue. The reality is, not ONE Immortal believes this class needs help in regards to experience, so it is not high on anybody’s todo list. We do realize a better progression of pets is ideal though. But again there will be nerfs, to go along with enhancements. Ive most recently asked and spoken to Akasha about this very issue. I notified everybody online regarding this nearly 10 days ago.
Blaming me for standing in the way of anything in S4 shows how very little the playerbase, or certain players, know what goes on up here. Speak with active Immortals and find out for yourselves how often I interject, or put an end to an idea or suggestion. When I say our efforts, currently, are in more important areas of the mud. Thats the truth, or how we all feel. I don’t stop somebody from working on something to help me with anything. I do as I please, Isabo and Breeze do as they wish, and the list moves downwards. We pick projects which interest us and we feel a need for and work on them. As Ive said 100 times, this issue in particular, honestly has to do with how the players will react towards the Immortal and the changes in general. There will be hours of complaints on the crier, gossip, channels, etc etc. The Immortal who finally does mess with this will be bashed, personally attacked, complained about, etc. Believe what you wish, but anyone in our email lists or wiz channels knows this is exactly why this project has not been attacked yet.
Re: Insomniac
Tox spoke to me a few days regarding elite eq. This is another project we realize needs to be done and totally revamped/added to. He said he plans on sending a writeup with new ideas and suggestions.
Im done responding, Ive spoken my peace!
Splork
Alas, when even the stars have spewed all that they can spew, there shall for
never be rest for the wicked, and no peace for those who sprout wings to
escape the burning crusts. The lava flows shall shout at the sky with smoke,
and the endless skies shall rebel with a blocking of the sun. On the other
hand, I’m reminded of something I heard along the way, “When you are doing
something right, nobody will know that you’ve done anything at all.” Take that
as you may as I believe you will.
OK, Splork. Thanks for listening. Will liaise with Tox with ideas.