I had some free time and decided to ponder about what I do not like about the current system and come up with a few ideas which would make Slothmud a perfect mud **for me **and I kind of wanted to see what other players think.
This is not a bash at the current system, at this point this is purely subjective and I simply would like to read if other players agree with this and if it’s a common thing, if the problems are there for everyone or are in my head alone.
Idea and problem A
Slothmud was always a group-oriented mud, for that reason players are capped in many ways to not allow groups to get out of control.
However, with many more levels and fewer groups, it gets very rough after a certain point. Bonus exp is great, but it’s just that, bonus exp, doesn’t really change the fact that you are still running the same things over and over again albeit for slightly more exp.
What I think would be pretty cool at this point is to see a 2 prime class system, where the second class prime abilities which are activated upon a player reaching 6x40, the secondary prime skill will be activated the same way a prime skill does, but it will get capped earlier. I.e a Cleric/druid will have Aerial servant and Shield of thorns at 6x40, but Shield of thorns will only ever reach 50-75% of what it would be for Druid/Cleric, which will have Aerial servant at 6x40, but..well you catch the drift.
This gives a player slightly more powers at 6x40, but in the grand scheme of things, besides being a novelty which would motivate players, will not let players get out of control. I don’t think a 50% parry with 50% riposte will give a ma/wa that much of an exp boost at 6x40 most good exp mobs hit for 500hp per round already and come on, has any immortal actually experienced the 5x40+ grind ? I mean, Jeez.
**Idea and problem B **
Another issue is homogeneity of most of the class choices and lack of replay-ability. What i mean by this, is that despite a huge variety of classes, there are actually only a few viable class combinations which every experienced players tend to follow to maximize their exp gain and joyfulness. Mana, regen and deathgrip are king.
This poses 2 problems:
First problem is that most classes chosen utilize only a few skillsets that are really desirable for their chosen class, which are usually divided into
Caster options: 4x caster to get max mana OR being a caster and a monk somewhere to have ability to grip while sacrificing around 100 mana for that privilege. All other combinations are wasted.
Noncaster options: Non-caster prime with 3xcaster classes to maximize mana. Non-thief non-monk primes with monk somewhere in the following 3 classes to have a good starting combo. That is it, all other combinations are nearly useless.
And the second problem is that this system is completely counter-intuitive. If you are new player and you think you are making an interesting class, you could not be any more wrong. It IS IMPOSSIBLE to choose a class based on your intuition in this game, when you choose a class, it will be absolutely nothing like you thought it would be, because to choose a class that is viable, that could make you at least some exp, you need to know how the game works and if you don’t, in 70% of the time you will end up with a dead-end class.
My take on this, is that we should scale every possible combination of skills depending on the position of that class in your class order. All blasting damage will be scaled back the further your mage is down the classo line. All healing will be scaled the further your cleric is down the classo line. All armor caps will scale the further the warrior is down the line. Pets already scale, shift forms already scale, monk handdam and damreduct caps already scale. Why not continue the theme ?
This will give every class a distinction from every other class, this will add a logical order to class choices.
As a conclusion to my thoughts:
In my perfect mud with both ideas implemented, we could end up with a completely different mud yet im sure it would still be very familiar. Yes, Players would be more class oriented and some of the classes that we have right now, that worked good because it maximizes your mana and regen might not work as your caps are moved further down the line and your healing and blasting abilities become capped.
However, in my mind, what we end up with is an intuitive system, where you could make a class as a newbie or look at someone’s class and completely imagine what it would be like to play and no class would be completely the same. Right now you look at a war/dr/cl/ne/ma/mo and you look at war/mo/ba/ne/cl and you realize that those 2 classes are playing in exactly the same way, however one class has over 700mana and the other has 300 – where is the fun in that ??
Ok, I will let the poll take over.
I don’t really like idea A. There are other ways to boost potential, already in-game. Why this? Like you mentioned, mana/regen/dmg is king. I don’t like idea B either. What you write as “useless” is funny. Are you having some problems gettin around? :D
Well, it is not a problem of getting around per say, but i have problems with the game that i have outlined - to me, Idea A is as much about keeping it interesting and fresh, as it is about boosting.
I would love to see my gameplay change somewhat at 6x40 and keep it fresh, a new prime skill will be introducing a new mechanics AND it would actually help differentiate us even more. Ne/mo/dr will be much more different from Ne/dr/mo and Ne/Dr/mo will be completely different from Ne/War/mo than it is now for example. It feels right to me, maybe your perceptions are absolutely different, maybe you think that this is a non-existent issue, it is ok! That is why the poll choices are there!
I know that not everyone will share my separationist mentality, but i hate everyone being exactly the same. We have so many classes yet so few actual choices.
Again, i’m pretty sure that not everyone is going to feel what i feel, but it just made me wonder, how many ?
I would like to see implemented a way to get non-drachma non-solo eq wothout eq-groups (rare as hell) or constantly grinding coins waiting for someone to do a vault ckeanup (which isnt going to happen, for volcanic guards, for axample).
Or, repeatable drachma quests.
Quote: has any immortal actually experienced the 5x40+ grind ? I mean, Jeez.
Lets see, basically without the bonus experience, one of our creators made 9x40, Katie. Toxis looks to be level 8x40 +37 and another creator is 6x40 26 26 13. Thats about 40% of the entire immortal staff.
Juggle also has a pretty high level character and I also have nearly a 4x40.
Take into account that these Immortals spend just as much time to build, code, and develop the mud, safe to say we know what the term “grind” means…
So the answer to your question, as silly as it is, is yes, we have.
Splork
adding new skill or what was mentioned still does not ignore fact that you will still kill same things over and over and over again. how ‘fresh’ it will be is still a long gap. so i can’t see how that will change things on a huge scale for it to be ‘more’ interesting on many levels.
speaking of gameplay, i did submit few ideas and was working with splork and jb about them in terms of grind. maybe if you could re-work some elements already ingame instead of new ones, anrok.
Eg i submitted smth like panning out them +20 wind/heal avatar bonus every ( 7-10 avatar levels?) to perhaps +5 or +10 in between the 7-10 avatar levels to ease the grind. total bonus of +20 still remains. in my eyes, that should be workable… so no new altering balance issue idea.
i get what you mean, just doesn’t seem solid :D
Dr
Well you see, you are only concerned about the grind, whereas i am raising at least 3 issues in my post.
Those are purely subjective (as you can see by the poll), so it’s possible that the only problem people have now IS grind, but for me, its not, that is why my ideas are thought out this way.
I will repeat again, what i feel is:
- Multi-Class system currently in place is counter-intuitive, there are a lot of weak and nearly unplayable class combinations, to pick a good class you need to know the system.
Even for a good player, it is very easy to end up with a character at 6x40 who has nothing over another character of the same prime class, but has much fewer resources. I will admit that i had this problem on a few occasions.
Our current system allows characters to be way too similar at their core, which limits available play styles and replay-ability
Game is getting stale past a certain point which is caused by a slightly non-linear character growth causing terrible grind.
If i thought the only problem was grind, then this issue could be solved within a few days, depending on immortals acknowledgement on the fact and the desire to fix it (however, judging by Splork’s post above, it doesn’t seem that way). And to my eyes, its not the main issue either. But if anyone needs my contribution im sure they would have let me know, but i had no such requests.
“however, judging by Splork’s post above, it doesn’t seem that way”
where do you get that from? you asked a question and he answered.
“has any immortal actually experienced the 5x40+ grind ? I mean, Jeez.”
he said yes, and that they did it while spending a ton of time working on the game.
nothing more, nothing less.
fact is, splork and i spend a lot of time discussing, planning and implementing things
behind the scenes. enough that his girl and mine both asked if we ever talk about anything
else.
we read bugs , ideas and forums and discuss what we should change.
we then change it.
Exactly, I simply responded to what I felt was a silly statement/question which was being used to support statement A and was extremely untruthful and misleading.
We have spoken about adding in secondary skills and spells based off the secondary class for years and Immortals nor players have come up with enough ideas to actually implement anything. We have just about every skill and spell idea imagined already. The idea behind statement A is not acceptable as is, as we will never be giving a Juju to a secondary class. Adding more pets to more classes is not something any of us feel is beneficial to the game.
As of right now, majority of people whom have responded don’t like any of these ideas and they are throwing out some of their own, which is awesome.
We will be spreading out the avatar bonuses, as mentioned by Dr. Its a good idea but not something which addresses anything the thread creator has mentioned.
Splork
It was just a wild guess, Breeze.
I have no quarrels with insane amounts of exp required to gain a level.
However, i would like the process to be slightly more guided and engaging.
But since it seems that the issue of multi-class lack of distinction issues are not very engaging, lets talk some more about grind.
This issue was raised many moons ago, by a good number players:
You start the game and everything is fast paced, changes come quick and you outgrow your gear and get new skills very quickly, your exp per hour rate is gaining very quickly and there are various interesting things to look forward to.
However, after around 5x40, when you have plenty of gear collected and got all those tasty avatar levels and all those skills that you earned so much for, you are left at the disposal of your support classes giving you something interesting (which very rarely gives you an exp boost) and an odd necromancer or cleric pet or a new form for druids, which are billions of exp away and are really the only few things that do move you forward, as experience required is growing at insane levels with every useless level. So you end up out of motivation and out of steam. And that is how the so-called grind begins.
Now, why do i get the idea that Splork and other immortals are not interested in making the grind go away ? I’m not accusing anyone of anything, but you can make the grind go away in a heartbeat and it would be as simple as adding 2 with 2 and i’m not even going to say it, because i think everyone knows it, right? But the idea is to keep the player for as long as you can, however, when you have too much grind for the sake of grind alone, it can and does backfire.
That is why I am not advocating for an all-out grind reduction, However, I AM advocating for the process to be more engaging by making an emphasis on class differentiation and that is what my second prime skill idea is about.
Is it such a mad suggestion ? No, i do not think so. It adds a depth to your class character class selection, it makes people motivated to get to 5x40 or 6x40 or wherever you place it and it can keep the player occupied by making your second prime skill grow with levels i.e: More mirror images with total levels, bigger aerial servant, better chance of parry etc, just as it is for prime, but capped earlier.
Dr says it wont be gamechanging and he’s right somewhat, but it will provide a slight motivational boost and it has a chance to increase your exp exactly at the right time if you chosen your class correctly.
It is not in your-face add 100 more hp to my undeads or add 20 damage to my firewinds and it’s a much more solid idea for it.
That’s my case.
Quote: Now, why do i get the idea that Splork and other immortals are not interested in making the grind go away ?
The major cause of the grind is experience costs. Did I not just add an INSANE amount of bonus experience to GREATLY help in this area? Its pretty obvious that if I felt that way you are accusing me of, I certainly would not of done this.
I really get pissed when I hear my name dragged into this type of BS. You have no clue what my thinking is and I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like you do.
The following two posts should clearly show how much I actually do care about this situation and they were done without any prompting from players:
Well, you are the creator! Your name is bound to come up sooner rather than later :mrgreen:
Exp can be a bit too much, but it’s not the exp itself for me, as it is the lack of forward momentum for the hours you put in. A horse runs twice as fast and whines alot less when there’s a carrot dangling in front of its face.
I can honestly say that i dont mind the game being very long, i dont want this journey to come to an end too soon, but i’m pretty sure that it can be made to feel less grind’y.
Dragoth wrote: Exp can be a bit too much, but it’s not the exp itself for me, as it is the lack of forward momentum for the hours you put in. A horse runs twice as fast and whines alot less when there’s a carrot dangling in front of its face.
I can honestly say that i dont mind the game being very long, i dont want this journey to come to an end too soon, but i’m pretty sure that it can be made to feel less grind’y.
I totally agree with this and I was pondering about very similar thing. It would be nice to see something to work for. Now its from 4x40 get as much avatar levels and then the dreaded grind forward.
Then what? new character to mess with, then another, then get bored… But if you know that with every 40 you get a candy, its something to grind for and its more interesting.
And I would not agree on making the second classes special ability available, maybe better to have more enhanced prime class ability…
Like every x40
mages for example more dam on frostbolt(because of the prime spell)
Thieves/monks damage modifier added a tad
Warriors bigger %for parry/riposte
and so on.
Dont need to add much, just it should be visible when you reach it..
Taaadaaa! you have done good job and reached another 40, here you are a candy, use it wisely! :)
I know we get 2nd pick of eq at 6x40 - but thats a long way for most of the players, if we see bonus more often - even tiny ones - it will be more enjoyable and would retain more players…
Just my 2c.
Just about everything in the above post is already in-game. Clerics get bigger heals, Mages have biggers blasts, Thieves get bigger stab bonuses, Warriors have higher AC, etc etc. I guess we could extend these bonuses but again, similar to Dr’s idea, this does not address Dragoth’s original post. He wants more diversity. Which I actually agree with, it is the one aspect of the 8 class system I do not enjoy.
Achieving that diversity has been extremely difficult. It is not something we are against though, quite the opposite.
I would suggest that once you hit 4x40, Avatar levels provide the best gains, and the 5th-8th classes are just there to provide the occasional utility ability, but mostly to get another 40, to get more avatar levels (and another pet). People no longer count levels past 4x40, they count 40’s and avatar levels.
Because the 5-8th classes are generally less desirable and less fun to level than avatar levels, we should drastically cut the exp required to level them. Maybe make up for that by requiring more exp to level avatar levels.
Right now, it takes about 14.5 billion to level fifth class, 22 bill for sixth, 44 bill for seventh, and 58.5 bill for eighth.
Avatar levels take 214.5 billion
I would say just make the 6th-8th classes cost the same as the 5th. This would cut about 80 billion exp required to level to 8x40, but I’d add another 40 bill to the cost of leveling avatars to offset that. This keeps the leveling focused on avatars, and less time leveling the uninteresting last couple classes in your classo. It also makes it easier for lower level toons to level up some of the essential utility abilities that might be on those lower classo’s. I don’t see a real problem with that.
This doesn’t help the diversity question, but I think it would help some of the other issues raised in here.
So, not to be a prick or anything, but i’ve been playing for over a week now on my latest come-back and/
- Where are the tanks ?
The issue was raised over 2 years ago - The whole mud relies only on a warrior class to tank and where are the high level warriors with good eq capable of tanking groups now? Nowhere to be seen.. As a result:
- Where are the groups ?
Even if we skip the tank issue. Why is no-one grouping for anything other than epics?
I remember in sloth3 we always had small groups of 2-3 men doing stuff together, which quite often grew into larger groups.
Right now, It seems that there is a serious lack of character symbiosis, taking another player with you only reduces your exp rate.
Again, this was discussed on numerous occasions. Even the thief/mage groups that were so great before, just don’t seem to work that well anymore.
So - no tanks leads to decreased availability of big exp groups, lack of character symbiosis leads to decreased availability of small groups, lack of groups of any sort leads to players leaving because the exp grind without groups is just ridiculous and boring, as we discussed here before.
Are we just going to pray for players old and new to just suddenly appear and shoot down any complainers, or Is something being discussed and in the process of being done about this ?
“one of our creators made 9x40, Katie” - Katie is back, serious?
Some offense to our immortal team - i really do wish for our immortals to play the game more sometimes. Even if it would cost in less changes/new implementations. Let me remind you of something. Few monthes ago Juggleblood made around 30 or 40 new items, “avatar lights”. More than half ot those were made pretty poor, either too weak or too powerful. Then he makes a thread about those items stats, but the first suggestion to change the bad ones is rejected. And then he dissapears for few monthes, leaving issue buried and forgotten. If you are not discussing most changes with players, then experience it yourself at least.
Ok, back to topic. Idea and problem A - letting player to have other prime class skills/spells isnt new, it was suggested back then, like allowing those in avatar shop. Dont see any problem with it, but i doubt it would really change things greatly. Besides, prime skills/spells are not equal in “value”, mirror image is pretty much game making spell for mage, but reflection is not. So it is not very universal solution.
Idea and problem B - Cant say i agree to whole thing, but i probably understand what you are getting to. From my pov, its slightly different problem. Its not that “utilize only a few skillsets”, but its very limited playing style options and skills/spells fitting those playing styles. Also some skills/spells would fit in one playing style, but would not fit in another. In itself its not a problem, really, its expected result. Some classes are better fit for some playing styles, some worse, but if you have all classes in class order, you generally can experience all of the playing styles, and thats what i like.At 5x40 i said to myself “jeez, why did i even pick that classo, nothing i really expected”. At 7x40 i made a damage set for alris, forged kris of destruction and did my 100m/h lyme run. At 40 avatar with -10 and 20+ damage alris is stabbing better than most 5-6x40 prime thieves. Yes, only very experienced player knows what he is in for when he picks his first class in new player menu, but if you go through game, you pretty much can find not only disadvantes of your class picks, but a good things too. It almost 100% wont be what you expected, but there are no really dead-end classorders. Scaling everything to your class position? Stop with the prime-centric thinking, its a multi-class game and right now its unchangengable.
About boring grind. Yes, the kind of achievment is great to get. The 6x40 and 8x40 levels are pretty cool because of the trip40 item choices. Equipment is always something nice. And for start, no need to add new items, it can be rework of existing ones. For example:
Ars Magica is pretty big forge, with 7-8x40 tier stats and right now low requirements. To nerf stats or to boost level requirement both not very good options. But it can be turned into series of forges. Forgeone: original forge with 2x40 req and 5 mana +2mr stats, forgetwo, adding few comps and forgeone - 3x40 req and 10 +2mr mana, etc up to 9x40. And if someone wants to be creative, it can have a fork at 7x40 or something - one reforge adds +maxint, another +maxwis.
Talking about low diversity and huge game changes - i always wanted to see different kind of “builds” in the game. Example: one warrior gets all ingame/drachma armor items possible and we can see armor tank; another warrior collects all handdamage eq, turns off parry, adds flurry and strike and here we have great damage dealer. But i do realise its nearly impossible, because before chaning anything, it needs a complete builds concept for all the classes. A lot of work.
I love the diversity in our current class system. I love my character who successfully stands the warrior archetype on its head and gets away with it. I love using my ridiculously large undead control to summon ghosts because they happen to be the most cost effective pet for my build.
I admit there’s a lot of advantages to picking a perfect classo or buying the right drachma eq, but there’s also a wealth of information available to any newbie who asks. For every response on the newbie channel, there’s 2-3 people also having private conversations with them, helping them figure out how things work.
As far as additional variety is concerned, I’d endorse, or at least utilize, an option to grab a skill or spell from another class. There’s some things that probably shouldn’t be spread around (Juju), but others that would provide decent diversity. Just for example, some thieves might like shield of thorns (no piasa for you!), others might favor picking up massive crit, and a third might decide Adaptation to Circumstances is the best use of his talents.
An alternate idea to increase diversity is to offer an opportunity to master one or two skills. Having to choose between a variety of good alternatives is a pain that I happen to enjoy in most games. Consider the impact of improved success on ONE of: Double/Triple Attack, Parry, Critical Hit, Improved Attack, Swordsmanship, Squirm, Sneak, Hide, Palm, Strike, Circle, Adaptation to Circumstances, Tumbling Defense
I’d like to see something new personally, not just a re-use of what we’ve had for the last two decades. Maybe one of Breeze’s top secrets projects. Hmmmm :)
Unrelated: I’ll be available for tanking at least one night a week.
No offense to some of you guys.
Telling everyone else that every class is ok and there are no bad classes is a fallacy, because it can only be ok if you know certain things.
And i’m not just talking out of my ass here, i know how this works. While i was struggling as a lowly necromancer at the very beginning, where necromancers pet points and pets were so screwed it was impossible to accomplish anything with them, i was always consulting Wimpy because he was a few dozen levels ahead of me and seemed to always do well with EQ and exp; the guy would always smile through his teeth and tell me that he feels that everything is o.k from his end, well i knew things were NOT ok, how could things be o.k, when level 40 pets are better than level 3x40 pets ??
AND while i was bugging Splork every single day and begging him to check out necro pets as they were broken beyond belief, Wimpy would tell me to stop asking Splork to change stuff, because changes are never good and he hates when imms pry into his business.
I did find out eventually, exactly what Wimpy was doing to get such nice exp and knowing now what he knew then, i wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about necromancer pets either if i was in his position all that time ago, but what would necromancer’s pets be like now ? Why waste countless hours arguing with immortals and writing angry letters when i’ve got my own little thing going that allows me to sidestep ALL of the problems in one go. Not a care in the world, the mud could stay broken, who cares.
So, please, when a person who does 10 billion exp in a week at 3x40 when everyone else can barely get 20% of that, tells everyone that the game is not broken in any anyway, it just makes me smile. Some people are utter hypocrites that’s what it is about, telling people one thing and then doing the other thing when no-one is looking and hoping that it stays that way.
This game became a trick-fest, where no-one cares for anything, as long as they abuse their favorite “feature” to better than everyone else, while everyone else “who is not in the know” is just struggling with day-to-day stuff.
Wow, I leave for a couple weeks and everything goes to hell…
Lol, personally I feel its more a matter of allowing characters to actually achieve the classo determined caps… as it is, since I am a dedicated ac tank, I can never get anywhere near cap in most other stuff, since I already spent most my dracma to get my ac etc.. It seems to be, dracma is the limiter… specially for new players.
To me I am seeing eq diversity as more a problem than classo. For example, my tank can get 120 or so heal bonus ….but there is not enough eq available to actually do it.. same with max stats, though I think I can reach it, if I run with -.2 ac… making it useless..
I spent about 250 days playing Cyprimus… imo I should be able to at least get near cap in all the abilities I spent so long to earn. I also feel I should be able to change eq and become something different… instead of just a tank with less ac, and a few more points of damage..
Jb seemed to be adding lights, allowing me to get closer to caps, but, got interrupted. Get back to work!.. p
At any rate, I am off till Monday, may stop by some, but trying to take a break from daily grind. I still check and see if any groups are going, so far, just not been able to get one during them… either not when I am available, or I cannot get a decent link…