I think most players agree parts of sloth are unbalanced, or there progression is not linear. This problem has always been a discussion of hundreds of forum posts and obviously causes friction among players, and among immortals… Is there a solution that is a “win/win” for everyone? It is after all a difficult problem to fix mid way into the game… with old players and new players and changes.
What would a solution look like, is there a solution to this problem?
The way I see it…
We would need an idea that empowers players to fix there own imbalances, perceived or real.
A solution that doesn’t always chuck the problems back at the immortals to make static changes.
A solution that goes someway to fixing the relative mess that eq has become.
Couldn’t this all be achieved, by making the Avatar Shop 3x40?
Think about how many problems this might solve…
There is not a lot of weapon dam before 4x40… buy a couple from the shop until you get high end eq.
You hate grouping and like to solo, but can’t pop your own eq… buy stats from the avatar shop.
You perceive you have a weakness and no imm listens to you… buy it from the avatar shop.
Blah Blah Blah eq problem… buy it from the avatar shop.
You reach 6x40 and you feel you are not progressing as you level 7x40 and 8x40… buy something at the shop.
It would appear that perhaps half of the 9x40 seem to quit playing once they reach the stage when they can actually buy from the shop. I hear a common criticism that more content needs to be added for avatars. I also see a lot of 9x40 remort these days and make a new char.
It seems a little pointless to have a “avatar candy shop” for people who become disinterested in using it when they reach 9x40. Would it not be better to be able to have the things purchased before 9x40, so you can enjoy them on your journey to 9x40?
You get the general idea… what do you think?
Eq will always be the easiest way to improve your char, but in cases of specialization or imbalances, or boredom, at least this way players have a way out to play as they please within the boundaries of capped stats.
The decision becomes 3 ways, should I buy something from the shop, should I level avatar, or should I level another 40. Players love choices, and this gives it to them. I also suspect it would be very very easy to implement.
They might consider opening some-of-the-shop at 5x40, since 5x40 was the old av40 during sloth3.
I believe Splork and/or Breeze already are thinking furtively in this direction, perhaps not with the speed you’d like. But I should clearly let them speak for themselves.
(there are some clear numeric differences in xp cost between old av40 and sloth4 quint40, but…roughly same difficulty, given that our chars are more powerful at 4x40 than a sloth3 char was at 4x40 due to the wider class structure, plus an xp group that a 4x40 is in at avatar-1 trying to get to 5x40/av-10 or av-11 has one or two 9x40’s helping them steamroll over things)
…Not so sure about opening all-of-the-shop only at 3x40.
What remains, then is
which shop functions would be opened up.
would the pricing structure necessarily be exactly the same as the full 9x40 shop.
Done badly, this could make a mockery of the eq restriction structure.
(I’m afraid to say some of the things you want like direct bonuses to say healbonus, spellbonus would probably continue to be jealously guarded and stay only in the 9x40 shop. Universal regular damage and the -0.1 to AC almost certainly.) Or end up double-cost or 150% cost in your 5x40 shop. I like leaving the door open a crack rather than excluding things entirely, but that may not happen.
Done well, this might bring about the results you desire. Some of them.
–D
Thanks for posting.
Yeah… your point about how it could make a mockery of eq is a clear and present danger I think. However it would also be a good chance to fix caps. Seems silly to have unobtainable caps, might as well open the shops up far enough to make the caps reachable. I don’t know if the current caps are class balanced though, but that would need some serious thought before the shops opened up. It easier to stop problems now, than later.
Taron suggested… buying some stats might be off limits to start with and start to open up with 40’s. Another way of doing it I suppose.
I’d like to see higher caps on mana, moves and hp’s as well. I know some avatars are twiddling there thumbs wondering what the game offers them now.
What I’d suggest is to only have mana/hps/mvs and stab/circle/sb/hb/hand dam/weap dam there. Though it does look lonely without ac there for tanks.
If someone wants to buy 25 spell bonus instead of leveling from 5x40 20 to 6x40 35, it’s his choice.
And yes, I support the idea of using logorithmical scale for hps/mana/mvs after 100, so eventually it is not worth buying hps instead of mana. Though I’d expect Katie to get 1hp for 100bil, and it’d be a perfectly reasonable occupation, only to get the next one for 103bil.
…or so crazy it just might topple the whole mud…
The game already has a natural trend toward acceleration. If you allowed players to focus so much specifically on damage, then that would just accelerate the number of players circling around Lyme in solo and small group, which would resemble the end of times period for last version of Sloth.
Inflation is ultimately the death of each incarnation of the game, when content can no longer keep up with player ambitions. And damage is fundamentally at the core of the game. Inflating player damage inflates everything.
Inflation… I agree and disagree JB, there can be no inflation… if caps are kept the same. Opening the shop does not necessarily need to increase caps, of course players would want that, I want that… but it doesn’t veto the idea that by opening the shop earlier it could allow for more linear progression towards your cap, even if caps are not increased.
I had a few years time out from Sloth after initially playing s4 when it came out, and having maxxed chars in s3… but when I came back a few months ago… I came back to BONUS eq… what started off as a challenge to get -10 is now temp -15, monk have hand dam rings, and druids that got nerfed to pieces at the start of s4, appear to be around the s3 levels or more in form, ac and dam. Gems are hard to get, but I feel drachma and xp is easier in this version… has there been inflation? Totally!
Interestingly though, the player base is still getting smaller, even with inflation getting higher. Player sustainability appears to be worse than s3. Max avatars have a trend to stop playing… A different discussion perhaps. I agree with you in some respects JB, but I think it’s the caps that inflate the game… opening avatar shop earlier does not inflate the game.
Three cheers for Gorka!
Quite a good idea, adds another layer or character development, which gives us more things to do and all within the existing framework, which serves the game very little purpose at the moment.
Power inflation is always an issue and has to be weighed even when you add a new piece of EQ, but it’s quite amusing hearing this from a person who introduced mana restore potions, damage potions and full group restore scrolls to the game. No offence JB :mrgreen: .
As for inflation, the amount of stuff from the shop is limited and is almost the same as you can get from leveling avatar to 40, and it’s cheaper to level avatar levels, because you get so much from them.
I don’t think buying stats and dam will ruin the game, because it’s wiser to level, but some people might prefer to tune their chars better.
Given that there are few 6x40 forges that’d ultimately give the same bonuses (+dam, -0.1ac, +10hp), it’d help to be able to buy hps early on.
If anything, that’s deflation, because players get exp at lower rates at lower levels, and if they want to spend bils of exp in the shop, while getting 2 bil a week, it’ll slow them down.
Dragoth wrote: Power inflation is always an issue and has to be weighed even when you add a new piece of EQ, but it’s quite amusing hearing this from a person who introduced mana restore potions, damage potions and full group restore scrolls to the game. No offence JB :mrgreen: .
Common misconception. Splork asked me to rehab the coliseum, which was originally built by Akasha. I did not create a single one of those potions or items. My actions did result in their proliferation, but I was simply doing a task requested of me by a creator. If you think they need to be nerfed say so.
JB did an awesome job at fixing up the Coliseum and pushing it to an entirely new level. It is easily one of the best features this game has to offer!
As for the potions, if you guys think they are overpowered, we can easily cut them back…
juggleblood wrote: Common misconception. Splork asked me to rehab the coliseum, which was originally built by Akasha. I did not create a single one of those potions or items. My actions did result in their proliferation, but I was simply doing a task requested of me by a creator. If you think they need to be nerfed say so.
I just found it amusing that you’d be the one bringing power inflation up, when your name is the one associated with some of the most inflationary things that happened to this mud in recent times.
But nerfing those things, at this point in time would be pretty unwise. Power is a drug and if you introduce someone to crack, you can’t really expect them to just simply give it up when you ask them to.
And I wouldn’t really want to be the one, to be blamed for this decision either, so no, I’m most certainly not asking you to nerf them..
Don’t get me wrong, part of me thinks it would be really cool if we craft our characters like that, but I foresee the existance of supercharged high damage characters that dominate the coliseum and get way more drachma from it than people who don’t go that route. And it’s a common refrain around here, especially from the people most active in these discussions, that when a system is created it “forces” players to go in the optimum direction or at least creates negativity from people who don’t opt to go that way. And also I stand by my previous argument about inflation. Chars crafted in this fashion would advance faster and get substantially more drachma available to them through the coliseum.
Yep. there overpowered. Nerf away!
juggleblood wrote: Don’t get me wrong, part of me thinks it would be really cool if we craft our characters like that, but I foresee the existance of supercharged high damage characters that dominate the coliseum and get way more drachma from it than people who don’t go that route. And it’s a common refrain around here, especially from the people most active in these discussions, that when a system is created it “forces” players to go in the optimum direction or at least creates negativity from people who don’t opt to go that way. And also I stand by my previous argument about inflation. Chars crafted in this fashion would advance faster and get substantially more drachma available to them through the coliseum.
But Coliseum is not the game and the game is not Coliseum.
Regardless of that, why would you be worried about someone getting an extra few kills in Coliseum if they spend extra time getting and spending billions of exp to get stats to get more kills in Coliseum. That is the most common thing I’ve seen people do, preparing for months, getting drachma eq, cheating with 39s, just to get their way. I’ve seen Tembikai go from 15 kills to 50 in about a month, and now you are telling me you are worried that someone will have the audacity to spend billions of exp to buy an extra strength point, just to get their way in Coliseum ? Come on dude, lets be real here, this doesn’t have any potential to become a real problem and neither does this go against the concept.
I suggest avatar shop is introduced at 5x40, at 3x40 you get your 3x40 EQ, at 4x40 you get access to avatar levels and 5x40 makes the best logical choice as it’s where people get a little bit worn out, as the classes that they wanted to level first of all, are all behind them and the future is a bit bleak.
juggleblood wrote: And it’s a common refrain around here, especially from the people most active in these discussions, that when a system is created it “forces” players to go in the optimum direction or at least creates negativity from people who don’t opt to go that way. And also I stand by my previous argument about inflation. Chars crafted in this fashion would advance faster and get substantially more drachma available to them through the coliseum.
As I was one of the persons behind the idea that the game motivates you to get drachma, allow me to pipe in on this.
Since then I’ve changed and narrowed down my opinion to:
it’s a game with numerous choices, and it’s your choice, whether you level to 5x40 or wear 40s one by one through the coliseum. It’s a game, that’s a choice, let’s respect that.
trying to max in coliseum is only worth in the first 3-5 levels. As levels get harder, you get much less for much more effort. E.g., the effort I spend to get the extra +5spell bonus from another interwoven circle just for coliseum is insane and I wouldn’t recommend.
as I said before, by spending exp on stats in the shop, players significantly slow them down in terms of max levels, skills/spells and (max) avatar levels. It is not worth doing it at 3x40. It’s vaguely worth it at 5x40, and it’s probably worth doing it at 8x40.
a singular improvement (-0.1ac, +1dam) won’t make a statistically significant difference, because the mob diference has higher influence. You’d invest 50bil+ exp to achieve a noticeable difference, and at lower levels this is not feasible.
I played a MUD with the meta shop available from the start, and it was just helpful, not overpowering. You still needed to achieve top rank to be able to get much more exp that’s required to get lots of hps.
postponing leveling for months for 10 drachma at higher levels is probably not worth it, since we regularly get imm-run quests. If imms continue to run quests as they do this year (great work!), then I don’t see huge reasons to top coliseum at later levels other than for records instead of drachma.
popping eq and writing scripts are noticeable parts of the game, and coliseum lets you perfect yourself. Some people may favor these parts, so I don’t see anything wrong in them. I favor groups over scripting, so even though I advocate using scripts, this is not the most important part of the game for me.
So, in short, coliseum is a part of the game, allow players to enjoy it as they see fit.
If we make another part of the game available to more players, it’ll make the game more fun for more people.
Let the 1000 blossoms bloom, I say.
It was already a mistake having caps across the board inclusive of 9x40 purchases at the Avatar shop, I don’t even understand why players are vouching for a 5x40 - 6x40 Avatar purchase. Doesn’t this make the existing problems an even bigger one?
Players are already losing field in this area, you can’t achieve measly hundreds of millions of exp to level but want to spend billions on buying stats.
Wut?
After reading everyone’s further analysis… I kind of agree that opening the avatar shop at 5x40, would ALMOST be pointless. As Taron pointed out leveling is soooooo much more beneficial to your character than buying stats.
An avatar level is +2hp +1ma +1mv possibly some regen, hit or dam and usually a good skill. To buy that in the shop is going to be infinitely more expensive than just leveling your character in an avatar level. You’d be stupid to buy too much from the avatar shop, you’d being shooting your progress in the foot!
My original reason to open the shop earlier (3x40), was to help address eq inbalances in the game for earlier players… waiting for 5x40 doesn’t do that, and even at 5x40 it would seem the prices almost put this out of reach as being worth doing. Even though opening up the shop is probably a good idea, I admit it’s not looking like it’s going to have a practical effect on any of the issues.
However, this does not mean the idea CAN work… it would just mean prices need to change also…
There is another thing about the system that is kind of broke… the economy of the prices is crazy… if you haven’t noticed the real power in this game is mana… once you’ve purchased 25ma… that’s a firewind in damage… that’s like 200hp… imagine how much weapon damage you’d have to buy to make up that 200hp that the firewind is doing instantly with 25ma. By the time that 25ma has recharged for another firewind, is damage going to be a winner? Of course not. Mana and it’s regen is actually the power stat. What are the most powerful items in the coliseum? Blue potions and scrolls… because they restore mana. Damage is actually overpriced in this game, I’d buy mana any day of the week, except in cases where the damage is a multiplier for stab or grip. Mana is where it’s at, but this isn’t reflected in the shop, some of the prices like stab damage (and others) make a mockery of any sense of economy.
The first thing that needs to be done properly is a fair and comparable price for each stat… There are ways to calculate this, by making fictitious fight scenarios of various sized mobs, and work out in a scaled manner how much each particular power is shortening the fight… and then assigning it a fair value. Once again I am willing to produce a report that openly demonstrates in mock battles which stats are improving performance the most so there prices could be scaled fairly… In fact I may even have the calculations I did in s3 somewhere…
Opening the shop, might not be a solution right now, but it can be if prices are changed… as Idjit was first to point out, and as it is popular in other games, when buying stats it’s a good idea to scale the prices with a ratio. The player should be getting xp easier with each purchase, so the prices scale accordingly… at least that’s the idea.
You buy 1 mana for say 500,000xp, the next one is 600,000, the next one 720,000 etc until you hit cap (1.2x).
The reason this is a solution, is because the first purchases are cheaper… and therefore easier for 3x40, 4x40, 5x40 or whatever… until you are an avatar busting your guts to purchase 1mv for 100b - admittedly you would probably have a few moves at this point!
In fact if done correctly, there should be no caps at all… due to economy of effort improving is ALWAYS possible but just almost at a stand still. Caps I think spoil the game, it doesn’t reward hard working players, it makes everyone the same… just my opinion.
It would be a lot of analysis to totally restructure the avatar shop… it could be a can of worms, it could also be a saving grace for the longevity of the game. Hard to say. If you made the change, would the game still be “sloth”?
Here is a sample of some of the work I did in s3 to try and calculate fair stat pricing…
I basically tried to break down every stat into a mana value, as mana is the “currency” of the game… it worked like this…
1 Mana Regen is 1.0 ma regen 1 Ma Regen Y
1 Mana Regen is 4.0 hp regen 4 Hp Regen Y 250 Restore / 62 Mana (Ma Regen is 4x Better Than HP Regen)
1 Mana Regen is 2.5 mv regen 3 Mv Regen Y 50 Moves / 20 Mana (Ma Regen is x Better Than MV Regen)
So breaking down the relative “mana value” of hp and move regen, I calculated that 1mr was 4x more powerful than a HP regen, and 2.5/3x more powerful than a move regen.
It’s not an exact science… but it does provide important knowledge… in the fact it highlights how much more valuable mana regen is compared to hp regen proportionally…. somewhere between 1-4x.
It’s always going to take some “human wisdom” after the numbers have been crunched to make sense of the results. Obviously the result to the avatar shop would be the price of hp regen should be a proportion of mana regen, each purchase could be scaled by a factor once the initial purchase price was set.
In a round about way, it’s possible to break down every stat… into a mana value to do a calculation to gain the wisdom on relative values.
Interesting results came out of this, don’t waste your money on heal bonus, buy mana… it’s better… there were other things… my secrets… :twisted:
Ok, you guys are right, it’s probably not feasible for people to achieve much from the avatar shop at mid levels because of the huge numbers involved.
Gorka I agree that mana is valuable, but so is damage. The big thing about damage is that affects the size of the mob that you can splork in one or two hits, which is a huge factor in this game.
Oh and regarding nerfing any coliseum toys, I promise I’m not going to touch their stats or their rates, without an immortal consensus or without mentioning the changes on the crier. Personally from a mortal perspective, I’m really enjoying playing around with the potions. I like that there are constraints on their use, meaning that the shops can only buy so much, you are dependent on someone actively running the coliseum and selling stuff, and reboots/crashes clear them out. Same for the group heal scrolls. People tend to save them up and use them when there’s a good group on, which makes for great gaming sessions, because when a group regens too much, the players lose focus and shit falls apart.
Gorka,
if you buy 1st stat for 500k, and 2nd stat for 620k, then the 11th stat will cost 500bil.
Just saying.
It’s much more economical to multiply high-amount stats, like hps, by 1.03 or so, like it’s done elsewhere.
Also, are you saying that current prices in the av shop were not built according to fight simulations?
I never really looked at them, because, I wasn’t (and am not) a 9x40, but they better be, otherwise it’s just…weird, isn’t it?
There is something wrong in your math T. 11th stat would be 3,095,868. In any case… it was just an example for a post, not a suggestion for an initial value or ratio.
Quote: Also, are you saying that current prices in the av shop were not built according to fight simulations?
Yeap, I don’t have the most up to date listing from the avatar shop, but you only have to look at the website avatar shop page to see that the prices are not relational to there actual value or contribution to player power, they are “partially informed” guesses. When you break it down Heal bonus and Stab bonus are crazy expensive for what they are, among other things. Spell Damage is not so bad, obviously in a fight simulation, you use damage spells each round, while you may not need to heal each round… if you get my drift. Clearly in any case… spell damage should be more valuable than heal bonus. It’s all over the shop in a “value for money” sense. I definately recommend trying to break down stats to mana/mana regen over a time frame to work out the economics, and buy the best performing stats first.
Using complex fight simulations, ratios, averaging results… it’s even possible to compare unrelated things such as how many charisma’s a undead control is worth… or how many stab dams are worth a mana regen… at least approximately.
From what i have seen i think the prices are already calculated well. Damage is always king on muds, at least the ones that are not pure rp..
I do however, think they should allow you to buy stuff to your classo cap. Cost is not relevant for this.
Remember, avvie shop purchases are not transferable, so, unlike eq, you cannot pass it to another alt.. etc..
I see the main benefit to the shop as, i can still play my max avvie and get progress on him, even if its slow.. at least i have a reason to keep login him in.
I would love to see something like the avvie shop for lower levels, but just do not think its workable in sloth, due to ppls overfocus on powergaming the system.
Its a game, i am here to enjoy my time, not be a damage munchkin…
I enjoy making efficient use of it, but, not as much as Taron… Maybe more than Zuzu…
Yeah, its a grind with little change for months at a time, and changes get really small in the end, but at least you can still change. Beats calling eq for years to get that extra .1 ac..
cyprimus wrote: From what i have seen i think the prices are already calculated well.
Sorry Cyp, but that’s rubbish, spend a little time and work it out… I dare you, you’ll be surprised 8)
What pricing did you come up with after doing all this math?
Doesn’t do any good to say the pricing is wrong unless you can say what it should be. Did I miss it somewhere?
It doesn’t calculate prices exactly JB… it calculates a ratio of how much something should cost compared to something else… consider the following example…
Lets say…
1 mana is 1 bill xp
1 move is 1 bill xp
1 hp is 1 bill xp.
Buying 62 mana can buy a restore… worth around 250hp
Buying 250 hp costs 4 times more to buy in the shop than 62 mana.
Therefore we can say if the price of mana is 1x, then the price of hp should be .25x.
Buying 20 mana can buy a greater refresh… worth around 50mvs
Buying 50 mvs costs 2.5 times more to buy in the shop than 20 mana.
Therefore we can say if the price of mana is 1x, then the price of mv should be .4x.
Some things are difficult to calculate… take a comparsion of undead control versus stab damage for instance…
You need to simulate multiple battles specifying pet damage and size with or without undead control, the number of rounds, damage taken to pets, damage… everything. Once you’ve calculated all that you can modify the effect of undead control by increasing it by 1 point, or increasing stab damage by one point.
You add up all the results and come up with undead control is worth x amount of stab damage…
It’s a fair amount of work to calculate things. No one was interested when I did it in s3, so I never advanced it to the level it needed to be. But basically done correctly it could tell us what is the value of every stat compared to every other stat… the imms could then decide an initial value of what X is, and everything is calculated out fairly to an acceptable degree of accuracy when compared with each other. Although things may appear “round about right” at the moment… they aren’t… work this through in your mind…
Compare buying 10 stab damage (40b), vs buying 25 mana (25b)…
10 stab damage = 20hp (lets say you land 2 stabs)
25 mana on a firewind is = 200hp (roughly)
40b = 20hp = 2b per hp
25b = 200hp = 0.125b per hp
Therefore buying mana is 16 times more efficient than buying stab damage.
Get it?
There is always going to be a margin of error…. but 16x? or 1600%? Is this acceptable? Players be warned!
Gorka,
Why don’t you hit 9x40 first and tell the people on top the ratio’s are “rubbish”?
There is nothing to work out. Like the old 5x40 system, majority players capped whatever they could. Nothing changed. Your assumptions are based on some calculation made on the premise that “mana” is currency, huh?
Caps were imposed on Avatar purchases long ago on S3 when Sa specifically decided to hoard/vault EXP tokens. Players like him will smoke 150’ish hps in a week, 150’ish mana the following week, 10 weapon_bonus etc and before you know it, he’d be running with 1.8k hps, 1k mana with capped heal bonus at max ac, max weap dam and so forth.
Previously, 5x40 Avatar Shops allowed max levelled players to burn experience points to enhance the said character / class however they see fit. Caps today are broken down into levels, class order, runes, in-game items, forged items, 3x40 items and drachma items. Today’s 9x40 Avatar Shop actually requires you to buy according to your class to simply hit your cap. See the difference? This boils down to caps being raised yet again for players awhile ago, but no specification and leads/new concepts to gap these.
In an Admin’s shoes, I’d be more than happy to implement the Avatar Shop for 5x40-7x40. What this translates is this: Let the mid tier players grind even more and decide for themselves on what they want. Even if ALL attribute’s cost in experience points were halved, let the mid tier players soak up billions of exp, slack on levels and progress on their class. As if players were not leaving already due to the existing grind? Super counter-productive, drop the idea. The answer lies else where in reaching these gaps like the break down above, not this approach.
Coliseum was added into the game years on when Sloth saw close to 5-6 9x40’s that year which is the most to date. By far, only the Coliseum had major influence in overlooking new char’s made with so many class order varieties never seen before.
Old Sloth inception, PvE / Coliseum influence, PvP. Like Taron said, the Coliseum is and has been such a great impact on play styles to promote fun. Ride the wave, enjoy the game phase, reap rewards and move on.
The original idea of this thread will only put players like yourself suffer even more. Judging at how much easier it is to implement the Avatar shop instead of injecting other approaches into the breakdown, I say let the suffering begin.
Lel,
Dr
Yeah, it looks the shop will only be useful at 7-8x40.
If you want to solve the problem of not having eq, I’ve suggested an idea for a honor shop a while ago.
Essentially, there you can buy plain templates of eq, which are slightly worse, than the best in slot items for those levels. Then again, it’d plant a stake into the heart of eq groups even further (what’s the last time you’ve seen an eq group? I don’t even remember - 3-4 months ago?)
Also keep in mind, it’s summertime atm, so there are even fewer people.
Then again, if you want to get more eq, lead eq groups :)
P.S. Yes, my math was way off, what was I thinking?
Ker wrote: In an Admin’s shoes, I’d be more than happy to implement the Avatar Shop for 5x40-7x40. What this translates is this: Let the mid tier players grind even more and decide for themselves on what they want. Even if ALL attribute’s cost in experience points were halved, let the mid tier players soak up billions of exp, slack on levels and progress on their class. As if players were not leaving already due to the existing grind? Super counter-productive, drop the idea. The answer lies else where in reaching these gaps like the break down above, not this approach.
I somewhat disagree .
Not only is this not forced on you, but this gives you an option to expand your character beyond conventional means (leveling and eq). You can choose not to waste your time on buying these stats at all, but if we introduce this, at least you’ll have the option, unlike now.
This brings us to the next point: giving the option to buy stats a 3x40 or below, imho it is absolutely pointless, because you gain much more by simply leveling or popping eq. That is why I proposed to place it at 5x40, it just makes sense to give this option to players later in the game, when they have already gotten most of their desired levels (both avatar and mortal) out of the way and have popped most of the eq that gave them the biggest boosts. I judge this from my own point of view, I’ve gotten one character to 6x40 and another to 7x40 and it just feels to me like I kind of peak around 5x40 and start to feel like i’m slowing down in my progress way too much and having another milestone at this level range would be welcome.
Ultimately of course, it doesn’t matter at which level range you introduce avatar shop, you can introduce it at level 20, it all boils down to how much each stat costs. If you introduce a shop, it means you want people to buy something, that means that what that shop has, needs to be desirable, but how do you make a HP point desirable to me at level 20, when i get 5 hp points just from levelling, and the lower level I am, the faster I get these. So any stat point has a very different perceived cost at different points of players levelling life. To make something desirable to a low level person, you need to significantly reduce it’s price, but sadly EXP is a very relative currency; if a hp point for level 9x40 costs 3 billion, how much should this HP point cost to level 3x40 ? Level 20 ? You can see that if we start discussing level ranges for avatar shop, it gets complicated really fast and the best solution is to not touch costs at all and this means that this pushes out the lower level brackets out of reach completely, there is absolutely no need to introduce avatar shop below 5x40 because the costs are too high.
Imho level 5x40 and above, is just about right to accept the current costs of the avatar shop and it’s where these bonuses start to make sense as an alternative character advancement route.
Burp,
Even at 9x40 - I can assure you that the figures involved is disgusting enough for anyone NOT to start, and you’re telling me 5x40 and above is acceptable? The bonus exp yield was to aid with leveling itself, which you got correct “character advancement route”, but we are talking Billions of exp, not measly hundreds of millions which the pass and current players cannot even go through.
The Avatar Shop is for maxed level players to burn exp, not a matter of choice because we would have nothing else to do. Making it a choice for 5x40’s, 6x40’s, 7x40’s and in fact 8x40’s will be a mistake.
But hey, it doesn’t affect me. If this crazy idea is what you guys think is best, and would work, I say let the pain and suffering come, to satisfy choice.
Yay!
Dr
You are saying it like it’s a done deal, it probably won’t happen regardless of what we talk about here, but in any case I don’t see any way of how you could adapt the idea of avatar shop to low levels if you start messing with stat exp costs to make it bearable for “lowbies”.
Not only will you upset all these avatars that have been paying a fixed rate of x billions of exp per stat for years, but calculating how much exp you want stats to cost at which level, or calculating it based off how many times you purchased that stat already is a monumental task which is bound to end in a failure. And I won’t even talk about Gorkas proposal to completely change the cost structure to base everything off mana points or something, that is just nuts.
Lets not forget that it’s a system that worked for years and my suggestion is to leave behind the grandiose desires of reworking the system to please everyone, that’s not going to happen. But If you take the system as it is and introduce it slightly earlier than where it is now, to let us branch out our characters a bit earlier than it was possible before. Yes, it’s not going to make waves and bring any serious changes that many people are hoping for, it will probably even be completely useless for many players who would rather spend exp on levels, but it might be of use to a few bored individuals, so why the heck not ?
Daft idea.
The only people who would benefit from opening up the shop earlier would be those who choose to stay at 8x40 + 39 and stock pile XP from the bonus rather than levelling up. As this is already frowned upon, I can’t see why it would be implemented.
Norks
Essentially there is no way to balance it.
You want it to be ‘bearable’ for lowbies… 50 bil for a point of max dex is hardly bareable for a max avvie. If i could have done it at lower level, i would have.. so i would likely still be a valker leeching from groups and not contributing at all.. but i would have dracma!
Max avvie exp is actually low compared to 6x40 or higher. So would have to be higher cost.
What i suggested a while back was allowing unspent exp to be transfered between alts, again, hard to balance, but easier than avvie shop.. so i could transfer a billion exp from cy, to … say, curate… he would get about half based on level, and another reduction because of class… so about 40 percent.. one bill becoming 400 mil.. just as an example.. but no one wants to calculate the values.. would always leave someone unhappy..
As for the shop, one hp on a lowbie caster will be worth more than for a high level tank for example.. reverse with mana.. etc.. basically ppl want to cover there weakness, so they will have to pay a premium.
Anyways, i remember ages ago… someone wanted to add a spell that would radically alter the game… it would be short duration, half the amount of damage the person took, and would be more expensive than the highest heal spell was… it was rejected repeatedly… until one mud decided to allow it… and sanctuary spell was born. Now several muds are removing it due to the balance issues… ie-all mobs after level $n are assumed to be killed by somone with sanctuary…
I feel the same about the pit. Its resulted in tokens… player stats, being easy, ac eq becoming pointless, instant mana and hp restores, ppl playing 39’ers.. etc… effectively it is forcing everyone to play damage based characters that abuse 39’s and scripts, or become irrelevant. But, a few ppl are enjoying it.. as any shortcut to power with less work..
It comes down to a matter of what the imms and players want.. imms here seem to want sustainability.. plan long term etc.. players want instant power with little effort. One is not gonna happen.. Choose your direction, choose your mud…
anyways. thanks!
Well, the thread has disintegrated now… almost amusing, surprised by some fairly deep bitterness coming to the surface about the coliseum…
I don’t think there was one idea that everyone liked. I’m disappointed - not because people didn’t like my idea, I admitted halfway through that without a price change, opening the shop earlier wasn’t going to work. What disappointed me the most was people’s lack of understanding that applying mathematical formulas to things insures linear based progression. Idjit’s idea around ratio pricing is probably a winning solution, but I swear some of you aren’t even interested in trying to even understand it. The situation here reminds me of a sick person who wants to get better but won’t see a doctor or take medicines. Comparing everything mathematically exposes imbalances and allows for corrections… this is a fact. The solution to sloth’s imbalances will be formula based, I think some people just don’t understand mathematical applications to problems. Look, the subjective is important, it’s clear some players don’t care about maths, and play for the community aspects of sloth - I get that… but the bias towards the subjective was what got imbalances into trouble in the first place, therefore only objectivity can be the solution.
Last night I rattled off a list of everything about this version of sloth that was better since I last played… the list was large, maybe 20 things thanks to the current active immortals. In fact the only things that I noted that were worse were gem pop rates and imbalances.
If changes to avatar shop are not a solution to this, then I think the only other way to fix things is to fix eq… if you thought ideas to change the avatar shop raised a little hell… wait till you try fixing eq… :lol:
It seems there is a grid lock… in this respect the players are to blame. Which immortal would dear make a change with you lot… seriously… Read the thread again… would you want to deal with this? I think we are actually part of the problem, if anything is to change, we need to be part of the solution, by coming up with them, while most seem content just to cold water others ideas without trying to understand them.
So I’m done with this discussion, but if the immortals do agree that some change could be made to the avatar shop or to fix eq imbalances, please talk to Idjit about his idea. Old players might not like it, but no denying it can work.
when Splork and I coded new gempop we had 2 options.
option 1) limit gems popped to a gem/day setup
option 2) mathematically controlling gempop.
we chose option 2. it’s pure math. 99% of how it works is posted to forum. Krom Splork and I divided gems to tiers.
we chose things the player could affect for the variables.
you could pop tier 3 all day if people worked together…
as Splork intended.
AFAIR there were no gems last version
gempop special is basically
var = //secret formula based on stuff//;
if (checkgempop(var) == false ) { checkgempop(var); }
Ahoy!
Please understand the nature of how things progressed in S3 and how they evolved into what you see today in Sloth. It is not as simple as “applying mathematical formulas” to insure linear based progression for all parts of the game. The basis of this idea only came up when “mana” was defined as “currency” which made no sense at all. That does not mean I agree to Sloth’s leveling mechanics as they are totally whacked out of “linear progression” and also does not mean I am 100% against the idea.
I do understand that your concerns lean on towards the huge gap for any growing class for any growing player. It’s not about us not understanding mathematical applications to problems. Like I said, even if the experience points for all the Avatar Shop bonuses got halved, which is a big win for mid tier players, your grind only gets worse. And please do not tell me this gives players “options”, you are only digging your own grave. Can you not tell by the other “options” that were made available to players today and what they have transpired to?
Caps were raised twice in view of linear progression. Old school players like myself going through the grind had no choice but to fill the 2nd cap raise through the Avatar Shop. Do you know how much play you have to put in to soak a “Halved Avatar Shop ratio” which translates to 5B exp at 5x40 or 6x40 or 7x40 to gain that +1weapon_dam? I am merely trying to point out that if the pass players were already struggling just to gain levels to play the game at its most basic, what will this ultimately achieve for the present and future?
We are not here to cold water any ideas or solutions players try to share. I for one have completed the game inside out and have no personal goals on Dr. Besides building friends and clannies, I also like to see players on Sloth grow as this only motivates me to play and anchor a support role instead of quitting the game like many others at 9x40. Any player can vouch that a single 9x40 Druid can turn your 100M exp group into a 400M exp group with much ease.
I actually appreciate the level of energy especially from Gorka and Taron combined to drive activity in and outside the game. Players will always be part of the problem like it or not, because without players, there is no Sloth. As of this point, I can only stress that the present grind is what keeps players at bay. There is not a player who logs in, looks at the numbers, feels disgusted and leaves immediately that I do not know of. I put in a lot of time and energy into the game so at any point should activity run, there is always a maxed Druid available to support the cause.
Nevertheless, please do not feel disheartened. My opinions are for anyone to weigh for reasons stated above. I would vouch for an ease of grind whether it be grenade groups, more no-cap days, more chop days and so forth. There are plenty of other solutions I can think of - this certainly is not one of them.
Much love,
Dr
cyprimus wrote: I feel the same about the pit. Its resulted in tokens… player stats, being easy, ac eq becoming pointless, instant mana and hp restores, ppl playing 39’ers.. etc… effectively it is forcing everyone to play damage based characters that abuse 39’s and scripts, or become irrelevant. But, a few ppl are enjoying it.. as any shortcut to power with less work..
It comes down to a matter of what the imms and players want.. imms here seem to want sustainability.. plan long term etc.. players want instant power with little effort. One is not gonna happen.. Choose your direction, choose your mud…
My perspective is the overall affect on the game from bird’s eye view. And what I see is a select group of experienced players having a chance to play a number alts and trying out different play styles in the coliseum. And I see the magical treasure spawned by that activity is feeding more activity around the mud. People trying out things they never would have tried before because they can toy around with the potions. And I see groups where people share the group fill scrolls, so that 10-20 people don’t have to sit on their hands for seven minutes at a stretch. And from an inflationary standpoint, having these max avatars spending time in their lowbie alts, instead of their super-tards is a deflationary thing. Someone could try to balance the pop rates on that stuff, but balance to what? Who can predict how much traffic the coliseum will see in any given month. My inclination is to leave it as is unless we see some kind of major imbalances, which personally I’m not seeing.
@Gorka
You seem to be getting upset that people don’t get your argument, so I thought I’d tell you that yeah, I totally get it. The relative value of the items in the shop definitely dot fit any kind of deductive logic.
The reason it doesn’t matter is because it’s capped. Since hypothetically if a person played forever, they would cap them all, it doesn’t really matter that their relative prices are unjustifiable. You can just accept it and move on.
BUT DON’T YOU WANT TO FIX IT IF YOU KNOW IT MAKES NO SENSE?! ..I hear you asking… Well, no. Because it’s grandfathered in and it would only upset people if we changed it now. Someone could spend a lot of time, coming up with a great cost structure and programming in, but all that work would just go to upsetting a bunch of people who’ve already spent a lot in that shop.
It’s just we need to define and follow a few policies for a healthy discussion:
stick to the topic (no bashing coliseum in a topic of an av shop)
provide constructive criticism: define the problem, say why you think it doesn’t work, offer a solution
Gorka, I don’t think we bashed your idea too much, but we did offer our insight in the topic.
So far, it amounts to:
if the shop goes in with current prices, they’ll be huge for 5x40 players
if prices are reduced, they might still be destrimental to leveling - or they’ll be offensive to avatars, who have to grind billions for them
if it’s in, it’s just an option and won’t boost players significantly, unless they want to stay at 5x40 39 and farm exp for the shop.
So, I guess we can agree to that, and imms can decide, whether they want to put in something that may be used a bit.
Perhaps some feedback from the immorts, who decide on these things, would be helpful, because it seems we’ve reached a common opinion about the shop or at least clarified the idea further.
@JB,
how about someone does calculate shop stat value algorithmically and the existing avatars get some exp reimbursed, based on what they’ve bought? That’d make everyone happy.
Of course, if someone decides that hp/mana cost need to scale from 1 and some people might end up losing hp/mana. Oh well.
Maybe we need to do the right thing to the best of our ability, really, because there will always be someone upset?
Teron wrote: @JB,
…That’d make everyone happy.
It’s not up to me, but you can have my (hypothetical) vote if you think it would make Cyprimus happy.
@taron
Are you wanting to expand it to all levels or are you wanting to extend the amounts you can get to caps or infinitely?
Who will do the calculations?
What is the goal? Ten years from now another pwipe?
What i am seeing is a desire to boost player base at the expense of sustainability. I have seen to many muds get top heavy and eventually loose everyone/shut down.
And another series of exploits, fixes etc..
@jb
what i was saying on the pit, is, the imms choose to try something different. Not that its bad or good. Every jb knows my opinion on that… I recall suggesting a temp item store… you made it a pit.. close enough.. lol
As my example… sancuary spell would never be added unless imms took risks/tried new approaches, i respect the imms here for that. It may mean rewriting a lot of areas et.c. but its progress.
I suggest a solid backup of pfiles and game before its added at the very least..
@Gorka.
You calculated hp value based on restore… healing is not adding a hp… just example.
Also, what makes you think the shop items are not comparably valued?
I still feel the prices are fair, but i also came here from a mud where you could do unlimited gains.. so can see the attraction of that.
Only imms have access to the real numbers that would be needed to calculate say.. value of one weapon damage, compared to one hit roll.. from my own instricts/years of play.. i think the prices are reasonably valued, but can only guess.. I reached a point with cy where there is nothing game changing left for me.. and i saw myself as blocking other tanks from peaking, so i retired him and worked on alts.
If shops expanded, would love to see what i become..
I am sorry if i am rambling… tired, and turning 46 tommorow… so for some reason cannot loose the song 46 and 2… seems appropriate for this discussion though. regardless of what taron says..
cyprimus wrote: @taron
Are you wanting to expand it to all levels or are you wanting to extend the amounts you can get to caps or infinitely?
Who will do the calculations?
What is the goal? Ten years from now another pwipe?
It’s Gorka’s idea, you should ask him or read the posts, the answers are there.
Hypothetically, though:
most powerful stats, such as +dam and +max dex, should be limited or scale at a higher rate, which would make it feasible to buy only several stats, with the exception of persistent players
medium value stats, such as dam reduction, should be scaled at a normal rate, probably reaching the feasibility limit about 5 points above our current cap
high volume stats, such as hp/mana/mvs, should scale at a low rate, such as 1.03, giving one ability to go for 200-300-400hps/mana if persistent.
Of course, whoever does work on it, should
- identify the limit, where it’s unfeasible to buy stats.
Maybe, when you can get more value for less exp elsewhere. It should also be understood that the feasibility limit will only be reached on 1-2 stats, not all of them.
- research the scalability rates elsewhere, which results they give, and what we want to get here.
My understanding is that we want the feasibility limit to be about 50-80% higher, than current caps, which would allow people to reach their current caps at a somewhat increased rate, with the option to pursue more stats for much more exp.
So, if we set the minimum exp for the first purchase, and the feasibility limit, which is exp required to reach feasibility caps, eg 15th dam reduction or 4-5th damage, we can establish a scalability rate.
As for who should do it, the imms should do the calculations, while players - such as you, Cyprimus, who is familiar with many muds - could research and provide information about such shops elsewhere. I played one MUD with the shop, but I can’t login to it.
Practically, I’d appreciate if imms do base shop prices on how useful the stats are and add scaling, allowing us to buy more stats by paying more. As for current prices, they are close, but not precise, e.g. 4bil for 1 stab dam, but 20bil for a dam point?
JB wrote: It’s not up to me, but you can have my (hypothetical) vote if you think it would make Cyprimus happy.
I’m not convinced anything will make him happy, but if he gets an exp reimbursement that’d allow him to buy another spell or stat, I don’t think it’ll offend him much.
Or, the scale could be made so that current caps would cost the same total, so he’d only benefit from being able to buy more of the stats with no guarantee that he’ll be happy about it, though.
I didn’t want to post again, but sensing a great idea is dying simply because of mathematics… here we go…
How can a person with poor maths work out ratios etc… Well there are calculators on the internet… and here is the one we need… there are many… keywords GEOMETRIC SEQUENCE CALCULATOR
<LINK_TEXT text=“http://www.wolframalpha.com/widgets/vie … 8e748da051”>http://www.wolframalpha.com/widgets/view.jsp?id=2e0e22bf96ca5c5084728a8e748da051</LINK_TEXT>
Lets say the current price to buy 1ma is 1b xp.
Lets say the immortals think that it’s simply not worth buying mana when 1ma is worth 200b.
Lets say the immortals think that when 1ma is worth 200b, they should have already purchased about 300ma.
Using this information, how can we work out the ratio that needs to be applied to make 1ma (which starts off being 1b…) end up being 200b for your 300ma purchase.
Go to the link above… in the four boxes, top to bottom, left to right type in…
1,000,000,000 term 1
200,000,000,000 term 300
Click Submit, then click Approximate Form… The ratio is 1.01788.
100th mana value: 5,780,448,447b for 1ma
The sum of all numbers until the 100th: 273,143,337,018b
Keep adjusting the calculator until it’s correct. Obviously in my example here, YES MANA WOULD BE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE TO BUY… BUT IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE… You can work out sums and nth values here using this Geometric Sequence Calculator…
<LINK_TEXT text=“http://www.calculator.net/number-sequen … lator.html”>http://www.calculator.net/number-sequence-calculator.html</LINK_TEXT>
With a clever use of mathematics, it’s possible to open the shop at 3x40, have the initial mana points at a cost that a 3x40 can afford, scale the cost upwards, until you hit a ceiling where it would take an obsessive compulsive to continue buying that stat at completely unreasonable cost.
So Taron told me off for not going far enough… whats the point in providing the tools, you also have to provide a working example as well, he said! Well I don’t like to tell people what to do exactly… I more want to inspire ideas, let people make the idea their own… this is more powerful… Anyway Taron won the argument, so here I am again…
So currently I understand it’s possible to buy 100ma for 100b… so here is an idea…
Start Price for 1ma = 300,000,000xp
Ratio = 1.02
100th ma point costs = 2,130,778,270xp
Sum of 100ma points costs = 93,669,691,773xp (Almost the same as the 100,000,000,000 now… clever huh! I thought ahead about the whiners who have already brought 100ma!)
200th ma point costs = 15,436,734,523xp
Sum of 200ma points costs = 772,273,460,680xp
300th ma point costs = 111,833,678,841xp
Sum of 300ma points costs = 5,688,517,620,922xp
Apparently people with an obsessive playing disorder can make 25b xp in a week. Hence for someone to buy 300ma, it’s going to take a month of xp to buy 1ma!
300m xp for the first mana point is probably a “consideration” for a 4x40 player in a rare circumstance… but bear in mind… as it has been pointed out, buying stats from the shop may actually harm your progress… so be careful.
And so I point out again… this is a win for everyone, the shop opens earlier, people can buy stats earlier (but at there peril), the cost scales, the caps are somewhat increased for the the elite players of the elite players, some imbalances could be fixed, the world could be realigned, and a 3rd and better person will run for the US Presidency, simple really…
Good bye again.
OK, taron. get to the 99 bil exp barrier… see if you can go over it. If not, then we got a hard cap.
If you can, well… no hard cap..
Till i know if you can go over it, i cannot table anything.
However, i am suggesting formulas; these are just variations i have seen, and assume 99 bil is hard cap. I placed them with the ability i felt most appropriate.
Promils..- as gorka is saying on hp/mana/moves- 1.03 x previous cost. I am not sure about going below 1 bil to start..
For max stats- double cost for each point… so max dex not achievable if 99 bil barrier still holds. But, you could do total +3 max stat for 140 bil total cost. Paying 80 bil for last point.
Damage- this is the hard one..triple cost per tier– each tier is present cap… so.. first ten weapon damage, 10 bil per, second ten, 30 bil per point, third ten 90 bil per.
UC- I do not know.. sorry. necro never got off valk..someone else would have to do this.. i would do simple doubling cost per tier of 5. so 16/32/64- could get 20 total from shop..
Heal bonus-triple cost per tier. so 3/9/27/81
Spell bonus-double cost per tier 3/6/12/24/48/96-note this will exceed anyones cap.. even mage prime,, so will think of something better if it becomes relevant.
Charisma- multiplier per tier.. not sure whats reasonable.. 3x -5x maybe..hard cap is about same as uc.. so its unique in cost.
Damage reduction first tier as is, additional tiers 3x… so 24/72
AC- 30/60/90 bil per point in .3 point tiers.
Ok, trying to think of other way i have seen over the years.. and remember promils better…
OH, also, another option is coins… presently its 1/1000 exp cost in coins… that can be altered.. even by demand.. so if lots of ppl are buying from avvie shop, cost goes up.. or can do different formulas for gold than exp..
Previously when i have done shops like this, i usually made the coins cost higher for stuff that was not part of your prime class, but with 8 classes.. not sure how that would work out.
Can also see requiring tokens for max stats.. say 25/50/75.. burned when you buy the stat, from your inventory.
Or even one token for each hp/mana/mv you buy etc..
But also, remember, this may actualy hurt groups in the long run, as individuals get so strong they do not need them..
OH, also, consider reduced cost on spell casting? automated systems usually go per spell and require spell tree.. so for example, to reduce the cost of circle of healing in half, you have to have already reduced the cost of cure light, serious, critical, healing, and resto…
And perma spells: do we wanna automate it or keep doing each one as imm decisions..sorry, bad pun, i will be hiding the next few days..
Would like to see more spells, but i agree, some just would not work well. Making it hard to automate.
anyways, just food for thought. I think the imms are just finding us sooooo amusing at times…
code xp cap is like
2,147,483,647,000,000,000 +/- 999 mil or some such. if anyone hit’s it i would be amazed.
Ok, maybe next week…
So no hard cap essentially.. hmm
Will have to think
IT HURTS!
afk
yeah. isabo changed it iirc. there is high xp and low xp.
(high xp)(low xp) format.
low xp is limited to 999 mil
high xp is in billions and int32 in size.
each time low xp hits over 1 bil then xp high is incremented and low xp is decremented by the same.
well, doest not change much on the formulas, only difference is max dex really.. would be very costly, and i suggest max stats either be limited to +3 max, or to classo limit ..thats currently unenforced by eq code.
Would end up with spell damage costing twice the normal gold too.
Again, have to decide if you want it to hard cap, cap via classo or just get way too expensive… but over all think what i wrotes good.
Now all we need is someone to code it!
Just reminding you that the initial idea was to do actual fight simulations and calculate exp cost, proportional to damage healed/done. Just calling arbitrary costs doesn’t cut it, we’ll be back to battling high costs for low value things, again.
Am I the only one who sees that the avatar shop doesn’t need changing?
IT DOESN’T MATTER IF THE VALUES CROSS-RELATE TO ONE ANOTHER. IT DOESN’T MATTER IF MANA IS EFFECTIVELY CHEAPER/BETTER THAN HIT POINTS, etc…
Regarding making the shop available sooner…. WHY? IS THERE REALLY NOT ENOUGH STUFF FOR A 6X40 PLAYER TO DO? AND YOU GUYS AGREE THAT IT’D BE FUTILE TO DO THIS ANYWAY! YOU’VE ALL POINTED OUT THAT THE NUMBERS ARE SUCH THAT THERE IS NO BENEFIT TO THE PLAYER!
You must think I’m stupid not to see that this is just about pimping out characters to get high scores in the coliseum. What else could possibly be your endgame here?
Someone back me up here pls?
I agree with jb. gow… i feel sick..
But would like to see the shop expanded, for max avvies who are getting bored..
JB
- Why doesn’t it matter, how much the items cost for new/9x40 shop?
Why doesn’t it matter, if it scales and players can buy more stats for more exp from the new/9x40 shop?
- If there’s a scaling price for items, then spell bonus/heal bonus could be worth buying around 6-7x40.
It’s not just about coliseum, it’s about being more powerful in solo/group. Coliseum is a good part of this, but it’s just a mirror of how we can solo, really.
The idea for the early shop is to give people at least some choice to buff their chars, something to look forward to.
Even then, I do think that recalculating stat costs and making them scale for the 9x40 shop would help, because the end game for 9x40s is relatively short, and they need more useful stats to spend exp on.
Hello,
Gorka came up with an idea to fix the missing gap that every player in every class lacks.
In his case, it is most unfortunate that runes take up 32% of the primary cap - weapon damage.
E.g A 32% which he will see maybe in another 2.5-3 years at the current gem rate.
Gorka came up with an idea to try and fulfill 40% of the primary cap, weapon damage through the 9x40 Avatar Shop by means of making exp rates linear and available from as young as 3x40.
E.g A 40% which he will never see till 9x40.
That’s simply 72% of weapon damage a Warrior will never achieve until monkey years later when the cap tells you otherwise early. So that leaves 28% in a spread of 0x40 to 8x40+39. Is 28% of the class’s prime nature legit at play? Should I name all the other problems in regards to the other 7 classes that suffers in a similar fashion? Are we all on the same page?
This has nothing to do with the Coliseum. What’s with the CAPS?
We have spoken about linear progression since dinosaur age. If some of you are still confused, please refer back to original post and work on a solution. Is it really that hard to understand?
Kthxbai.
I had written it, but deleted: there aren’t many +sb items non-mages can use. Especially, if I want to wear +dam, +hit, -saves and +sb.
It seems only bard and monk have lots of eq to wear early on. And maybe warrior tanks. But if you want to play a dps warrior or a solo bard, Idjit help you.
@Taron, Solo bard? Ok, what about eq for the guy who wants to be a mage prime tank? Or Thief prime healer?
@Ker, shouldn’t these niches be filled with equipment? Or maybe we should just abolish all equipment and have players buy everything with xp from level 1 to level 9x40.
Wowza, finally someone who points out some common sense. Yes - EQ.
Does it feel weird that the players have opted to lean on an extended grind calling it an “option”?
juggleblood wrote: @Taron, Solo bard? Ok, what about eq for the guy who wants to be a mage prime tank? Or Thief prime healer?
The game consists of both solo play and group play.
While the imms would like to force people into groups, the solo game exists, no matter what imms think, because people are different, and some just prefer solo. Some prefer a balance of solo/group.
Mages don’t solo in tank gear, and thieves don’t kill with heals often so you are comparing apples to oranges.
If the bard could solo with +20charisma and -5ac and his prime skills, that’d be as good as the mage soloing big mobs in his sb/-saves gear and -1-3-5ac. While mages can kill all kinds of mobs with relative effort, bards have to go out of their way and use extensive mob knowledge to solo exp. This could be better.
The difference should be in how players use skills/spells, not that “warriors must only be tanks” or “clerics must only heal in groups” or “bards must be only a group character”.
Basically, all the bard needs to solo efficiently is the single-target skill/weapon I’ve suggested.
Now, back to topic:
I do tend to agree that instead of spending our level exp on stats, we should be able to get better eq at 5-9x40, both ingame and forged. It’ll be easier and more fun, than grinding for exp. There isn’t a single piece of 9x40 eq other than the light. What gives? A 8x40 item other than a 3d tri40 item? I know 1 7x40 item (but even then, I think I dreamed of it).
What gives is that there aren’t any 9x40’s building areas and designing eq. Seriously I think this is the problem. The game depends on player generated content and the most addicted players aren’t contributing areas. I try to contribute one a year or more. If more people tried to do just 1 a year, the eq would be a lot more flushed out, which means the classes would be more flushed out.
I know that many of you guys just don’t like to build. And I know that some people just can’t be trusted with even the most basic immortal commands. If anyone is interested tho, in helping just design forges, we could propose that to the creators. My thought is that it would be cool if we could add several forges to the game at once, aimed at each of the classes at a particular level. So for example if someone designed 8 different 9x40 forges for me to put in, one aimed at each class. And then if someone else wanted to put in a set of forges aimed at 4x40, or whatever.
Again, I’m not speaking as someone who has the authority to grant someone this job, but if someone were so inclined, they could approach Splork about it, knowing in advance that JB would help implement it. We have to keep up with content, especially eq.
Count me in for EQ, I will personally see to it a fixed time for :
EQ to fill the niches mentioned for all classes
EQ that needs restriction adjusting and attribute balance
Forged EQ - Low , Mid and High Forged: Upgrade concept for niche filling as 1)
Drachma EQ - Prices and Proper Class/Level Adjustments (20 years on Sloth, will you trust me?)
I would suggest implementing these on a more fixed methodical approach, than a all at one go, to allow players in adjusting appropriately.
Me can build, but my application has been in the dark for over 8 months now. I have ultimately chosen to concentrate more on other things now. But me like EQ.
OkieDokie!
juggleblood wrote: Lets fix eq.
It’s the harder of the two solutions to achieve, and it’s a massive amount of work you are suggesting.
I think the imms need to re-evaluate class skills and caps first, making sure they are better balanced than what they are now (particularly with new classo). Then the eq change team could have proper boundaries to work between. I fear it will be another mess if boundary parameters are not set first after things have been better balanced. Dr would have my vote to help with all this, but I think it would be better if there was a team appointed so there would be different point of views, final say to be had by an immortal. I don’t know if I’d chuck my name in the hat for purely a database/analysis skills point of view as I have some real life changes occurring next month, but lets see if the idea even gets off the ground first. The changes need to be linear, fair, incremental, comparative with levels/classes, and include better balanced prime eq. But judging by some posts in this thread I am terrified by how this might turn out.
I started work on a “Dressing Room” program tonight… a program that given your levels and requirements works out the best eq set that you can have. I only spent 1.5 hours on it, and it would need many, many more hours to work properly. It would also require help from immortals to sort out issues with the eqlist, it currently doesn’t filter temp/quest/retired items. There are other issues with it… But the reason I did this was to illustrate that using a program like this… eq imbalances can actually be found programmatically and mathematically.
Here is some output from my program comparing Gorka’s classo at all level 15’s and all level 35’s for hand dam/weapon dam items. The beauty of this program, is it will calculate the best eqset for anything you specify in a couple of seconds… (Note if there is a slot that doesn’t have WEAPON_DAM or HAND_DAM it just uses the first item it can wear in the list.) Remember the results are for illustration only, this is a test!
RESTRICTIONS_WARRIOR 15
RESTRICTIONS_MONK 15
RESTRICTIONS_CLERIC 15
RESTRICTIONS_MAGE 15
RESTRICTIONS_DRUID 15
RESTRICTIONS_NECROMANCER 15
RESTRICTIONS_BARD 15
RESTRICTIONS_THIEF 15
RESTRICTIONS_AVATAR 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC silk smoking vest 98007 0
TAKE HEAD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC pair brown leather riding gloves 3031 1
TAKE ARMS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sleeves precision 98013 0
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC buckler spiked 81107 0
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC robe satin 98004 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC soft white sash 4209 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC polished stone bracelet 8300 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC polished stone bracelet 8300 0
TAKE WIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC scroll recall ornate minor 49306 0
Total : 1
TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC breastplate hammered 39939 1
TAKE HEAD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC handwraps kun tua 39952 1
TAKE ARMS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sleeves banded leather 13224 2
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC ap shield ram head 72500 1
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC robe satin 98004 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC soft white sash 4209 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC scroll recall ornate minor 49306 0
Total : 7
RESTRICTIONS_WARRIOR 35
RESTRICTIONS_MONK 35
RESTRICTIONS_CLERIC 35
RESTRICTIONS_MAGE 35
RESTRICTIONS_DRUID 35
RESTRICTIONS_NECROMANCER 35
RESTRICTIONS_BARD 35
RESTRICTIONS_THIEF 35
RESTRICTIONS_AVATAR 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC tunic battle spiked 24015 2
TAKE HEAD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC gloves lycan claw 132715 2
TAKE ARMS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC wraps banded leather arm 43097 2
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC shield fist beast beasts lord 40152 1
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC robe vines covered 13225 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sash ebony 43095 2
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC aura pride elite high legacy_equipment 51351 2
Total : 13
TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC shirt runed 98001 0
TAKE HEAD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC grv gauntlets cleansed soul 72307 1
TAKE ARMS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC wraps banded leather arm 43097 0
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC buckler spiked 81107 0
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC robe vines covered 13225 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sash embroidered thal thalassian argo 73214 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC cuffs silken 43098 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC cuffs silken 43098 0
TAKE WIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC parchments bound wind blown spellbook xurhix xuie 8291 0
Total : 1
So what the program did, was in a few seconds calculate the max value I can wear for HAND_DAM and WEAPON_DAM given artificial levels I supplied it…
Obviously the outcome identifies the issue with weapon damage… I could make the program identify and report on every issue for every stat, without relying on people’s knowledge of the game, or player biases… so the people responsible for fixing eq could be properly informed.
This is how you start to fix the eq list! With proper analysis! Even the smartest player won’t find half the things that a program like this could tell you programmatically. This is completely unbiased and evidence based, unlike some of the crap in this thread… :evil:
@dr, wonna cooperate on eq? two heads are better, than one, and I (or Stun) probably have played warrior more, than you .)
@gorka, great work.
Just what I was saying about hd eq. Though I guess the same can be said about warrior ac eq: after 1x40 you pretty much need a few forges or items that require 40s (sabatons are 3x40).
Can you run the same about spell dam/heal bonus, please?
Is there a way to use it via the web? Or it’s a desktop script?
Thanks.
Re: skill balance
Maybe it’d help to run fight simulations to bring skills/spells to balance, and then bring these calculations to the 9x40 shop prices.
So I kind of agree that it’d help to define this first, and then come up with eq stats that’d complement the balance.
That is the problem with working out EQ gear, too many heads makes the situation bad. They’d need someone experienced who can clean the mess the crap is in now, with a clear goal in mind.
I dressed Stun up since young, I don’t need to play a warrior to know what it’s missing “EQ” wise.
But we could work together yes! :D
Fixing the current EQ DB out is a piece of cake. Stop over-thinking. No cap changes, no “boundary” changes. This is the time I would personally say : I will not explain in technical terms why we need these changes. Know for a fact that, they need a change, a positive change. If I were to start explaining, no work will get done. If I had to explain to every head why these changes need change, no work will get done. I “study” EQ for all classes and analyse how EQ affects a player’s play for as long as I have played now. How long? Too long.
It’s just like playing chess. I can’t explain why it’s a good move, I know it’s a good move.
K <3
Ker wrote: Fixing the current EQ DB out is a piece of cake. Stop over-thinking. No cap changes, no “boundary” changes. This is the time I would personally say : I will not explain in technical terms why we need these changes. Know for a fact that, they need a change, a positive change.
It’s just like playing chess. I can’t explain why it’s a good move, I know it’s a good move.
Err.. It’s not even clear which changes you’re talking about. What do you want exactly?
65+ posts and we are still unclear? Shaize!
ToodaaLooo Madafakaaaaa (c) Doctor turned Comedian.
Bai.
Ker wrote: .. Shaize ..
Shaize. A person with effortless good looks, an amazing body and very lovely personality. she must be a Shaize.
I assume you mean scheisse or scheiße if you prefer.
I think the confusion is with you saying eq db instead of available eq usw…
Ker wrote: 65+ posts and we are still unclear? Shaize!
ToodaaLooo Madafakaaaaa (c) Doctor turned Comedian.
Bai.
This head scratcher had me reviewing this entire thread to see if I missed something.
This thread was about opening the avatar store at some earlier point. Everything you wrote seemed to imply that it’s a stupid idea. Then at one point you make a bunch of complaints about caps without explicitly saying want you want.
Then this crappy remark. Wtf do you want man. Spell it out, cuz I’m curious.
You definitely go in rounds. Move over 8)
ps: gorka, check this http://slothmudeq.tk/. Maybe it will help you a bit. Though i doubt your BIS thing will work with only single item in result. Its always a problem to get best item, so you often use other variants. And comparing time-to-get / value.
Anyway, that script should consider char basic stats to count best variant.
Thanks Fluffy, although I’m not sure what BIS is… :| Google tells me, Bank for International Settlements, and who am I to argue with artificial intelligence… :roll:
I am familiar with… http://slothmudeq.tk/ However I would like to point out, it has some problems.
It doesn’t have a mechanism to solve the problem of prime eq.
It doesn’t correctly match the levels you type in with x40 eq.
Also, if you have downloaded Breeze’s LUA eqlist and tried to convert it to XML, you see the eqlist has some issues that make doing some things really difficult.
There should be a specific flag for HOLY EQ
There should be a specific flag for x40 EQ
There should be a specific flag for legacy EQ
There are two ways of specifying AC, one with a positive scale and another with a negative scale.
I don’t see the point of BONUS stats… why not just fix caps and make eq administration easier…
This creates so many headaches… I was trying to filter out holy eq, but the only way I could do that was exclude results that had “holy” in the description, this excluded some regular items… in the end I excluded “GenericGod” in the descriptions. It’s problems like this, and there are many, that make my life difficult.
The program is currently written in VB 2008 with a MySQL backend with the eq in XML records. I make heavy use of MySQL/XML functions in determining the complexity of eq restrictions… I guess in theory it could use some XMLPATH query thingy instead, but I’m fairly traditional when it comes to programming languages and don’t have much time for new and overly lite ideas. (Yes, I mean you LUA)
I have a whole list of ideas I could implement. For example I could implement a “eq difficulty” scale against items, allowing such queries as… “what’s the easiest way for me to improve x.” I would also like to open source it, distribute it to players. In a perfect world I’d like builders to use it to see where their item fits in and if it’s causing imbalances. At the moment, there are a number of individuals who don’t see the merit, and there is no buy in yet from imms. Without this, it will remain my hobby program.
For it to work effectively, I need imms to consider making changes to eq structurally. I’d prefer an XML eqlist format, because XML has stood the test of time, and it’s more supported, including by MySQL and SQL Server. I think some some new flags need making, and cap information needs to be public so the program could take that into consideration… another thing I am moving next month… and do I really want to spend more time on this considering the dumb-arses that don’t get it. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Some of my ideas are this…
Open Source
Include Cap Information
Collaborative
Mob Value Lists
Support for Runes and Clasps
Ability to choose items by multiple stats, ie, best ac item that also has hitpoints or mana points etc
Char stats need to be input for better decision making.
The number one mistake programmers seem to make, it make themselves “gatekeepers” for making changes to software products. Case in point, my co-worker, who make a program for my work that only he can use… and he wonders why he has no time with people asking him to make changes… Eventually these types lose interest or wear themselves out. I’d change how I was doing things if I could be convinced other people would buy in and support it, because I may walk away from sloth tomorrow… or maybe I get hit by a bus, or maybe Zuzu targets gor in a group… There would be a benefit of the eqlist being in MySQL… maybe sloth could stop using datafiles and go database… Perhaps unfeasible… :lol:
I have said 1000 times that if someone codes a better eqlist I would host it 0 people took me up on the offer.
5-6 asked for details and never replied.
all data is available via mysql (Maria ) or Lua / raw data files.
I have a sample WordPress module.
I am done making eqlists. 99% of comments i received are complaints.
it works for what I need and frankly I don’t have the time or desire to revise it.
if you want to do it, submit your idea to be directly to me at breeze @ slothmud . org
regards, breeze
note : I am more of an ass t g an juggleblood. ymmv
I understand Breeze, doing anything for this game can be completely thankless… May as well do what you want to do if you are going to do it. I’m interested in the Maria export option, I will contact you after your break maybe. The exports so far enable me to take it as far as I plan to take it at this point.