Rebirths

Some of us were asking Josiah about his “rebirth” today over gossip. I like the idea of coming back in a new and improved form to replay the game again.

It would allow you to reach epic caps that would be almost impossible in the regular game, tidy up some drachma bits and pieces, and not have to learn all those often annoying spell books again.

But I got to thinking, would be nice if some other incentives were created to encourage avatar players to rebirth… I was thinking something could be done to improve the chances of popping a t3 gem solo… because any of us that are new, will doubtfully even have a single t3 rune by the time we reach 9x40…

Anyone else got ideas? Nice to see a whole new path for avatars.

Any chance rebirths could wear 6 pieces of 3x40 eq?

In my opinion, avatars need 5x40-9x40 raid content, similar to epics, but more challenging (not necessarily in damage, but in fight tactics) that they can look forward to and stay active. Similar to the raid content that WoW regularly delivers.

Maybe more competitive challenges in forms of quests could be fun.

Redoing the same areas is pretty boring, especially that I’ve done valk quite a number of times now.

However, I agree that rebirthing is appealing and I’m already considering it for Taron, if it’s possible at all.

I think this is a great feature. Allow Max avvie to “reborn” could bring them back to the game. It should make reborn char much stronger as well to encourage reborn (better damage/hp/mana/regen/etc). Perhaps implement some “reborn” restricted eq and open up some reborn difficulty area for (xp/quest/forge/drachma gear/gems/etc) as we progress. This can help easing the traffic in some xp area currently camped out by high avatar (i.e most of non group lyme area).

Vege, only a small percentage of players will rebirth, so the area needs to be open to regular 6x40+.

I agree that Lyme is camped, but it means we need areas for high level characters, not just 3-5x40. Eg, an area with the equivalents of the massive black dog, 10mil ether mobs in Necropolis, weaker Mystica splorkables, etc.

Unfortunately, how hard mobs can be is limited by the 10mil cap of avatars. If only they could get 15-20mil for solo mobs that really challenge them, otherwise harder mobs have to be group mobs. Which wouldn’t be too bad, if there were no notion of single player play.

i am not even sure yet how rebirth will even work yet..

its a 100% manual process that has to be done by a coder since the player file needs edited manually to clear some things.. quests, etc.

its basically remort+

having said that, if any other full avatar wants to try to rebirth, they know my email.

will do a helpfile or something later for it.

Good point Taron. However, if the rebirth option is attractive enough (substantially stronger as they progress/higher cap) we should see more people doing rebirth. Also, with a new progression path, we can probably tweak to allow players to level faster (maybe from 5.40 - 9.40 range) as I see people usually slow down or stop playing around that range. But this sounds like a “new expansion” to the game. Not sure if sloth has the manpower to implement this anytime soon.

Taron should immort and be in charge of all the raid mobs.

Agreed. GET TO WORK Taron !

I dont see any power advantages in that rebirth, except extra drachma from quests. And since its posible to get everything you want from quest shop in single 9x40 route (like Josiah did for example), so no point in that. In terms of power for sure.

Though maybe its single way of getting top honor ranks. Because without remort bonus its undoable. And trippling honor you gain maybe worth that exp loss, if aiming for highest honor rank :)

Personally for my, i dont mind remorting Fluffy only if there will be real power changes for that action. Like keeping all avatar shop bonuses active with ability to buy them again :) Just as example

Josiah kept his stats as well, but didn’t keep his shop bought bonuses.

I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t have kept the bonuses… he’s only going to hit a cap anyway… but I agree with Fluffy… This development is really interesting, but I’m kind of on the edge about whether it’s “worth it.”

In Josiah’s case, he doesn’t have a lot to gain from more drachma… but if honor is your thing then that’s the real winner…

There are so many cool places to take this idea, but it’s like it’s not really out of the oven yet…

josiah kept what he kept simply because thats what i decided to leave him with.

he was willing to reroll, but i decided to leave it there for him.

i took all his billions of xp and let him keep his base stats since he wouldnt get auto rerolled when he hit level 8 1 x x x x x ..

i added the [1.Rebirth] pre-title just because i thought it looked good.

in retrospect i shouldn’t have added it and let you think i was being an a$$ and just punished Josiah for annoying me.

i never had the intention of manually re-birthing a character and tbh i doubt i ever do it again since no one else will have the patience to wait as josiah did for me to have the time to log in and edit a player file manually. ( which took what.. 30? 35 mins? )

worth it or not is no one’s concern except for josiah. he is the one who asked for it (and got more than he asked for) and has to deal with the consequences… and is now the baseline for anyone else who gets re-birthed, if anyone else ever does get re-birthed.

You puzzle me Breeze, you almost created life after avatar and doubled the length of the game, and now your kinda like ho hum, whatever, I should be more evil, it’s not going anywhere.

is anyone else willing to give up what he did?

all I am saying is it was unplanned and he is only one affected by it

Breeze wrote: is anyone else willing to give up what he did?

It would appear so… Filk, Taron and I are giving it serious thought, only Filk currently has a 9x40 atm though.

Have you noticed Wasp is back? Serega is back? Old players always return to this game… I think this idea has great potentially in it’s current form, but with just a little bit more direction it could be accepted that 1xAvatar is only the beginning of multiple rebirths, and a longer game experience.

I don’t see many new players sticking with Sloth, but I am always seeing old players coming back to this game. What you did with Josiah was important, you might see it as a one off between you and Josiah, but I don’t think the other players see it the same way. You’ve opened a door to something worth doing.

hmmmmmm…

I really think that idea worth to be discussed and implemented in some way.

Now we have global cap at the game. At the point, when you purchasing all needed thing in avatar shop. And picking all eq you want(which you often do earlier then even 9x40).

If there will be some reborn option, not only for fun, but for some real advantages, that will give capped players ability to achive something more. With good implementation - infinite ability.

Maybe it will ends with allpowered chars, able to do some really impressive things. But why not? Even now each and every mob in that game is killable with mare. Nothing will changes. And on other hand, that will add some interesting options to area builders with raising dificulty. And worthing rewards.

Be honest, now we are stagnating. That will bring some interesting side to our game. Image all these 9x40’s playing again constantly :)

talk among selves and come up with a full/realistic idea and i will discuss it with rick and the others

keyword: realistic

Seems perfect for me too. Do not see me redoing cy, but paka definately, ip likely.

Will need more details. And ..time.. lol

From what i gathered, keep same name, keep all stats, all eq, but loose avvie other avvie shop purchases.

Keep rank.

Reset drac quests-this for me is the deal maker… i suck for drac.. lol

Keep learned, but blocked till you relevel

Potential abuse in the stats, if ppl choose a different classo, but not major.. as most will assume 19 in all stats before doing it.

For me i see it evolving as roles… level once as… blast mage.. then level again getting another main roles eq… healer for example.. etc..

40 eq …don’t care either way.

Avvie light… same…

Breeze, it does add a bit of room for thought, because it’s not just doing another char, with all the sbs and eq, which require cycling, and also allows one to build a 2nd or 3d set of drachma eq (ie, not just ac, but hd or spell damage).

As of current results of rebirth, I’d rather reborn, than remort, because I like playing a warrior, anyway. I actually was considering changing my classo on Taron from secondary after getting 6x40 with my remort.

I’ll try to see how other MUDs have done it.

JB, before I create raid mobs, I need to finish writing how to do the group scheduler we discussed earlier, and to write an area for 1-5-10 levels, if I ever get to writing areas.

I do have a few unique ideas for raid mobs, something that hasn’t been done here before and which would require more attention from the group, but I’m not sure whether it can be done, since epic procs seem to be a pain to create(?).

Fluffy, you don’t have to rebirth to get high ranks, remorting is fine. Mage remorted a few months ago and is on the same rank as I am.

Anyway, I too agree that there could be something that’d accumulate over rebirths on a character, like extra damage, regen and ac as the innate remort bonus - which should be shown/known to players.

It appears the idea of “Rebirths” really got tongues wagging. It’s also been discussed a lot in the telegram channel and people are really interested. It’s also been unanimously (?) supported that the base of the idea should be what happened to Josiah. However some people believe it needs to go just a little further by allowing the transportation of “something” from the avatar shop before being reborn.

The reasons some people are saying this make sense. Take for example a character like Dr, who has effectively played the game twice in the same character, who has spent more than 400b in the avatar shop… and already has most drachma items that he needs… there seems little point to be reborn.

In fact I suspect Josiah made this deal only out of boredom originally… if anything it was a sacrifice, that ended up working out probably better than he expected.

I think the point now is, what should be allowed to be carried over from the avatar shop… if anything… bear in mind we still have caps… so nothing is effectively getting more powerful… perhaps just more obtainable.

The ideas I have heard are…

• Taking across stats included purchased MAX_STATS

• Taking across avatar hit/dam

• Taking a select number of shop purchases

etc

I made out like a bandit; I’d be the first to admit. All I asked for was to be deleted without losing my personal eq.

There’s a lot of rumors going around, so here’s what I lost and gained:

I lost all my levels and xp. I lost all my avatar shop purchases. I lost the 500 million or so gold spent on those levels and av shop purchases. I lost a capped 9x40 character, and have no way of killing mobs that I could easily slaughter last week.

Unexpectedly, I kept my stats, rank, and warcry counter. I don’t have to read books again. I get to run autoquests again. I have a fancy thing next to my name on tho who list. I got to feel scared this morning when Lucifer disengaged onto me and took me down to 2 hp. This is so cool!

I’d definitely recommend ‘Reborn’ becoming a thing. For me, it wasn’t about maximizing or gaining power, it was just a desire to play again through a game I love. I’ve tried many alts, but none of them had this spark that I feel now, of playing MY favorite character again.

If there is a reasonable demand for increased endgame power via Reborn, I’d recommend it be met by increasing the caps on avatar store purchases. For myself, I’m very happy with things the way they are.

Unrelated, but since we’re talking about new stuff… I’ve always liked the idea of grabbing a prime skill or spell from another class.

Shield of Thorns, Second Wind, Frostbolt, Deathtouch, Apply Poison, Adaptation to Circumstances… There are a lot of good options that could add some individuality to our characters if there was a way to unlock one ability from another class.

Josiah, you forgot the prime skill that I’d grab first: wraithform. Though the shield of thorns is a strong contender.

I was long thinking about that question. Thats my thoughts about how it could be done.

Each reincarnation gives plain:

.1 ac

1 dam

2 mr

+1 to all stats

30 mana

30 hp

all stat caps raised by 5%

Ability to pick another 9x40 light on each 9x40

Cleaned quest list, and usual remort bonuses.

You do it at master avatar. Action takes all exp you have(so no instant leveling after reincarnation). I dont know, how better add stats to the char, but it could be permanent stackable spell attached to a player. So you always see, how many reincarnations you passed.

Lets image someone did 5 reincarnations. Which took him maybe 5 or more years.

He gets .5 ac, 5 dam, 10mr, 5x18 natural stats, 150 extra mana, 150 extra hp. 25% higher caps(which is still limited by eq). Avatar light for each eq set he has. And all drachma items for each sets.

Such char will be better because of plain ac, mr, dam, hp, mana bonuses. But not extremly better i think.

Caps allowing that char get little better results at primary class stat, and about the same as non-reincarnated primary class in their stats(depending on class order still, and limited by existing eq anyway).

And each eq set isnt any better then ordinary char could have, just all these sets at once.

I understand, that list seems big, and maybe looks too greedy. But in fact, its just all rounded improvement of total power, without edging one specific side.

And after 2-3 time, you actually gets only ac, mr, dam, hp, mana bonuses. Since othat bonuses dont stack that much.

Dont forget, that you pay years of life time for that power addition, so why not. It could give second life to all 9x40 avatars.

Though i have feeling, that will kill avatar shop, because ppl will not play at 9x40 for long :)

Discuss

Filk wrote: Though i have feeling, that will kill avatar shop, because ppl will not play at 9x40 for long :)

Important point this… avatar shop needs to be redone in such a way, that you keep what you purchase from the shop for each and subsequent rebirth… otherwise avatar shop is really mostly null and void.

There are a few ways you can work this… most of them a bit of a change… but whats the point of buying from avatar shop if you’ve decided to be reborn… and reborn is arguably more attractive than avatar shop.

There really does need to be some recognition and change in regards to this game system conflict if rebirths are going to be a “thing.”

Double drachma will also increase the calls to do something about the state of drachma eq. In my opinion this should be thrown back to players to fix in a consultative process… (given some boundaries) then ruled on by an immortal in charge… as this is too much work to be done well by one player, especially an immortal who doesn’t want to suffer all “whining” from totally unreasonable players.

1. Since avatars can buy stats once, and keep them, there’s no point in giving 5 stat points every remort.

Adding max stats would’ve been fun, but max dex beats any other stat and ac bonus, so I don’t see how “add at least one max stat per rebirth” would’ve been reasonable as well, while max str is lackluster.

2. As for shops, since max stats apparently stay through rebirths, that’s what people would buy at their original 9x40: stats.

In another few games I’ve seen, stat shops are used in different stages of progression. People used them to buy stats to boost their play now (smth Gorka argued for long ago), others choose to spend 10 years on rebirthing, some choose to do it once and then just buy up the shop then. So shop will still be used. It’s obvious, though, that it’s easier to buy effects after rebirth, than before.

So no, Gorka, don’t suggest redoing the shop just because some of us will choose to reborn. Some may not have the desire to spend another 6-12 months on the same char to get the same benefits you usually get for 6 avatar levels. Just think of the 125mil gold it costs to get to 6x40 and how much time you’d need to grind it. And it’s only a start.

3. I suggest raising caps not by 5%, but by specific amounts.

First of all, which cap is used - the one I had before or have after rebirth? They are different for each classo, and the new classo is non-existent at the time of rebirth. If I remort from a mage 7th or 8th and you increase the cap of 45sb by 5%, it’ll give me 2.25sb, even if I choose to play wa/ma after rebirth, what’s the fun in that? Even a cap of 130sb raised by 5% is +7.5sb, which isn’t smth to write home about.

Raising caps by 10 spellbonus/healbonus/stab/circle/1 dam reduction/-2 all saves would be much more appreciated and be within reasonable limits, imho.

4. Raising caps themselves doesn’t seem to be very useful, where eq caps exist. I’d rather be able to buy bonus flail/spell dam/dam reduction/flail/saves, than get larger caps. I’m not clear on this one, need to think it over.

5. For the sake of completeness, might as well add +hit per remort. It’s universally useful and isn’t that OP to argue about.

1. Just for the record. I dont offer to keep any avatar bonus shops. Because it gonna be too overpowered, if you continiously buying it. And too overpowered, if low level chars keeps it. So all avatar shop bonuses are cleaned. Including stats. Thats why i offer plain +1 to each stat on each reincarnation.

So you can choose, if you want to play at the top with all bonuses you get from shop, or you reincarnate 5 times for the same bonuses without the shop.

2. Speaking of the caps - i dont watch at it in terms of single reborn. But in limiting gains when you do it several times. Percents should be rounded for sure.

What matters - is after 5 reincarnations you get 25% bonuses on caps. Which for example of given 130 spell dam, gives 32 more spell dam over basic cap. Good, but not overkill - just few more spelldam items you could wear. Some way you could spend that extra drachma.

And dont forget, that my idea is about overall raising of most stats. And not becaming a god after several reincarnations. Not about rasing spelldam to the heavens and oneshooting everything.

Because any too overpowered idea will be just refused and thats all. Think from that point of view

You get bonuses to your current caps. No matter, what classo you had before. In percents, so its simple and gives interesting choices for new classo each time. Idea with permanent spell perfectly covers that logic.

Hit could be raised also, yeah. Forgot about it. By 1 or 2 probably.

I don’t think OP is an issue… essentially caps are meant to stop this happening… so why not keep the small offerings from the avatar shop each rebirth? Only going to hit the cap anyway.

I also don’t have a problem with players becoming God like, as long as they get there through hard work and linear progression then in my opinion the player has earned it. I mean look at Zuzu, Josiah and Dr… it’s already happening… There is already an unmeasurable difference between a level 1 and a 9x40 avatar… what difference is that making to the game? So what is the effect if the distance becomes a bit wider? Well… probably not much at all…

It’s fun to discuss ideas, but I feel some of the issues we have raised have complicated things a bit more than expected… I note nearly all are centered around avatar shop, which is an idea that clearly kind of conflicts with rebirth. I guess the question is, do we want to have the two options at avatar… shop and rebirth… and how can those things complement each other… before we discuss nitty gritty pluses and minuses.

After some thinking, i believe avatar shop and reincarnation perfectly fits each other. Some players able to choose to play at top, with all shop bonuses. OR. Could reincarnate, and become waaay more weaker in current time with potential to be little more powerful in future.

If you lose all exp on reincarnation, its only matter of time when you want to make that switch. And on what cycle to stop reincarnation and sticks to shop only.

And about power - read again Breeze last message. If we want that thing to be done, it should be realistic in each and every continuity

3.reborn…

Should the number of rebirths be limited? Does it matter? What possible power increase would be realized by 3.reborn for instance?

Shrug. My idea for it to not be limited. So you can play for another 20 years for 20.reborns :)

I wrote example for 5.reborn in my offer post.

Filk wrote:

1. Just for the record. I dont offer to keep any avatar bonus shops.

Fluffy, please be precise in your wording here. What you mean is that we don’t keep avatar shop bonuses, not the shop itself :p

Since Josiah didn’t keep his avatar shop bonuses, we keep that as the base rebirth condition and don’t imply otherwise.

Filk wrote: Thats why i offer plain +1 to each stat on each reincarnation.

Are you suggesting that a reborn will get 5 stats regardless of their natural stats, ie, get max stats, if they already have 18s? Do they keep getting max stats on 2-3d-4th rebirths?

Filk wrote: or you reincarnate 5 times for the same bonuses without the shop.

You said that a reborn gets the same bonuses as now (1 max stat per stat), but then imply that they keep getting 5 sets of stats? Clarify.

2. Yes, I view it as a continuous process of 3-5 rebirths

However:

• casual players won’t be reborn at 9x40

• 5-7 rebirths is near maximum of what one might attempt, imho

• I doubt many people will go for 3 either, because a single rebirth grants you x2 exp and x3 honor. No other rebirths do that.

Filk wrote: You get bonuses to your current caps. No matter, what classo you had before.

But a 1 level character doesn’t have any caps. I guess it could be made that he does get higher caps.

4. But why do you insist on using caps specifically? I gave you several examples, where bonuses are limited by eq, not caps. Increasing caps won’t do much for at least half of the bonuses. Especially that you need to use eq slots to use those caps.

5. Adding 10 spell bonus/etc per reborn won’t add anything overpowering to a character, including a newbie character.

Even if we consider 5 rebirths, which would take 2 times it takes to get to 9x40, it’d give +50 spellbonus - just double of what the avatar shop gives you or almost same amount you get for leveling avatar classes.

You can’t possible oneshot something with 50 spellbonus or stab dam after 3-4 years and 5 rebirths. In fact, to think about it, 10 skill bonus seems low for that amount of effort.

We were asked to be reasonable, not to shoot ourselves in the foot with rebirths. I’m trying to be reasonable, and yes, I do understand that we can’t make this feature a cheat code.

For example, adding these skill bonuses innately is precisely what would make newbies much more powerful.

Perhaps, granting the skill bonus at 1x40 would make it less OP. And if you have +50 skill bonus from 5 remorts from playing the same class for 5-7 years and 3bil+ gold, maybe you do deserve it?

Gorka, there’s no conflict of avatar shop and rebirths.

If you don’t want to be reborn, just buy all the stats and effects.

If you want to be reborn, then you buy stats, reborn, level to 9x40, buy all you want.

If my idea for buying bonus skill bonuses is approved, then reborns can also buy bonus skill bonuses.

Simple.

For me the drachma is more than enough.. keeping stats good, 19 in all fine… do not care for more..

if spells carried over, i would get more actually… but do not see that happening, i likely have the most perma spells of anyone with cy.

caps for abilties… have no opinion on it, though going overcap on saves and spell bonus is quite powerful. No so much for heal bonus…

I liked what josiah got.. kepts stats, same 40’s gear, same light, just redo dracma for more gears.

Maybe make the avvie shop open to reborn characters?

Do we wanna emphasize prime or make everyone into a one man army?

Breeze said discuss it amoung ourselves iirc.

I perfer prime… but i also have multiple max avvies of different primes.. the one man army means fewer experinced players will group.

Could also see perma spells opening up as you level or reach a point in certain classes…. ie-you regain your perma detect magic when you hit 40 mage, or you regain sense life at nx40.. etc..

Would be great to keep avvie shop stuff, but no idea if it would balance reasonably… not checked to see if caps increase gradually enough that having avvie shop purchases would unbalance the game or not. Having +25 healbonus and perma lite while leveling would seem helpful… but nearly all mobs after valk are balanced on the assumption you will be lit entire fight, so not really unbalancing.

Would seem to me, adding more than what josiah got would make for a massive drac haul from the coli.. but never done much on the lower ones. so dunno.,.whats a few thousand more drac gonna do…

anyways. gl

I thought about unlocking bought effects/spells at the next 9x40, but it’d be unfair to Josiah and I don’t know how to do this retrospectively for him.

It would make some sense, though, so the exp/gold isn’t wasted.

It’d also open the path for rebirth for old avatars, like Cyp, who have bought lots of stuff in the shop.

If bought stuff carries over to the other 9x40, then I suspect the most dedicated players would like to be reborn.

How op is it? I don’t know. It doesn’t increase anything by itself, but the rebirth does, because it becomes a matter of spending a year and 650mil gold and to keep your drachma eq, yet is balanced by keeping your prime class, compared to a remort.

Teron wrote: 1.

Filk wrote: Thats why i offer plain +1 to each stat on each reincarnation.

Are you suggesting that a reborn will get 5 stats regardless of their natural stats, ie, get max stats, if they already have 18s? Do they keep getting max stats on 2-3d-4th rebirths?

My offer came from statement, that we remove ALL avatar shop purchases on remorting. Including basic stats purchases. Not evening speaking about max stats.

So in each reborn you get +1 to str, int, wis, dex and con. Until your stats become 5x18, regardless of your nats.

If that effect comes from a permanent buff spell, it doesnt hurt any current game system. At least from what i see now, since we have stats spells and permanent spells already.

But actually, we could just ignore and keep these basic stats, if they were purchased. That doesnt change much in whole picture.

Max stats are not transfered.

Teron wrote:

Filk wrote: or you reincarnate 5 times for the same bonuses without the shop.

You said that a reborn gets the same bonuses as now (1 max stat per stat), but then imply that they keep getting 5 sets of stats? Clarify.

I meant overall picture about reborn power. That bonuses you get from reborn in 5 runs are somewhat looks like avatar shoped purchased by max, at least for several params.

That was about the question, if reborn is single way of playing if added - it isnt.

Teron wrote: 2. Yes, I view it as a continuous process of 3-5 rebirths

However:

• casual players won’t be reborn at 9x40

• 5-7 rebirths is near maximum of what one might attempt, imho

• I doubt many people will go for 3 either, because a single rebirth grants you x2 exp and x3 honor. No other rebirths do that.

Shrug. Remorting bonus to exp is quite powerfull. Leveling is quite fast. And 9x40 players usually the most active players in the game :)

I will not be surprised to see Josiah or Dr doing these 5 reborns in 3 years. That means they will be heavy active in these years though, so its good :)

And we are speaking about the potential, not about the desire to do it. Even if only one player wish to do it.

Teron wrote: 3.

Filk wrote: You get bonuses to your current caps. No matter, what classo you had before.

But a 1 level character doesn’t have any caps. I guess it could be made that he does get higher caps.

Again. I speaking about the buff, that gives percent addition to your current values. So doesnt matter what exact values are.

(Level 1 has the same caps as level 39 i assume though)

Teron wrote: [4. But why do you insist on using caps specifically? I gave you several examples, where bonuses are limited by eq, not caps. Increasing caps won’t do much for at least half of the bonuses. Especially that you need to use eq slots to use those caps.

5. Adding 10 spell bonus/etc per reborn won’t add anything overpowering to a character, including a newbie character.

Even if we consider 5 rebirths, which would take 2 times it takes to get to 9x40, it’d give +50 spellbonus - just double of what the avatar shop gives you or almost same amount you get for leveling avatar classes.

You can’t possible oneshot something with 50 spellbonus or stab dam after 3-4 years and 5 rebirths. In fact, to think about it, 10 skill bonus seems low for that amount of effort.

We need to raise caps. Beause otherwise you will reach the top at some point.

But we cant just give bonus spell bonus to players, because it will be abused after some period.

Extra 50 spelldam above current top state is huge bonus. And has tendency to expotential speed growing, since your exp rate is raising with each such rebirth.

So we need some workaround decision, when players getting power, but not that much power :)

Maybe its on the edge between. We giving 5 spellbonus, 5 heal bonus, 1 reduce dam, 1 charisma, 1 unded control.

And raising caps by 5% at same time.

So for primes that give some direct bonus addition and little cap raising to that bonus to play with extra eq.

For other bonuses effect is limited by the cap(which i raising slower then plain addition), but that helps with eq setup.

Teron wrote: We were asked to be reasonable, not to shoot ourselves in the foot with rebirths. I’m trying to be reasonable, and yes, I do understand that we can’t make this feature a cheat code.

For example, adding these skill bonuses innately is precisely what would make newbies much more powerful.

Perhaps, granting the skill bonus at 1x40 would make it less OP. And if you have +50 skill bonus from 5 remorts from playing the same class for 5-7 years and 3bil+ gold, maybe you do deserve it?

I guess i think that 50 bonus stats is just to high for five remorts. So we could deal on a half, like i said few lines above :)

Explain to me, why you think that +50 bonus is too high for 5 remorts.

You get the same bonus for leveling avatars.

You buy half of that from the shop.

And here you say that getting the same bonus for leveling from 1 to 9x40 5 times is too much? Why?

Because you get 50 extra. Over the shop. And after it, you get 100 extra. And then 500 extra. And so on.

With actually 5, 10 and 50 extra damage at same time with that bonuses. Which also not any good(so kinda we should not raise dam, but hand/stab/weapon dam instead, because they are capped).

I dont count time, because its irrelevant. No matter when, but we seeding a balance black hole here. Which will explode sooner or later. Thats why i think that some cap must be. Or lowering effect of each next rebirth by some degree, which will curve to zero eventually, so i dont like that variant.

Well. I would like to get such power and so on, but:

1. imms will not pass it through

2. that will break game once imho

What about making chars 10x40, where 10th class is remort?

So, with first remort u’ll became lvl1 in this class.

It’ll take some time to get to 10x40 :)

Also, it’s possible to write manual bonuses for each remort level, like bonuses for avatar levels.

As for me, buying upgrades in avatar shops and losing em on remort, well… senseless.

Mb, trade em to some exp bonuses, like one upgrade will count as +1% exp after remort.

So, it may be profitably to buy these upgrades even just for future (after remort) exp bonuses, while having fun with getting upgrade bonuses right now.

I guess making x10 class will be too huge change to the game. No one will do it probably untill another global restart, which is doubtfully coming :)

You are not forced to make purchaces at avatar shop. Its your will, if you going for remort, or gonna play at 9x40. So i dont see any problem here

Filk wrote: Because you get 50 extra. Over the shop. And after it, you get 100 extra. And then 500 extra. And so on.

With actually 5, 10 and 50 extra damage at same time with that bonuses. Which also not any good(so kinda we should not raise dam, but hand/stab/weapon dam instead, because they are capped).

I proposed one of the variants:

• add +10 skill bonus - it’d still fill the cap. You can’t get 100 above cap, you can only fill the cap.

• buy bonus skill bonus. Since you can’t buy bonus sb, remort, and keep it, you can only buy it at your last 9x40

I agree that bonus skill bonus is more powerful, that’s why adding bonuses to fill the cap would work better. Basic bonuses will allow players be more powerful in other aspects of their skills.

You could get above cap if the second variant gets chosen, but can you really expect 50 remorts? Are you serious? I don’t think some of us will live long enough to do them, let alone keep playing the same class for 20-40 years.

Ok, even if you do remort 20 times, why do you deserve 200 higher cap? Won’t you get powerful if you get eq? Buying bonus skill bonus here isn’t radically different, because you simply pay for the bonus you’d otherwise have gotten from eq to fill your +200 cap.

Either with the cap variant, or basic skill bonuses, the amount of rebirths is limited by the eq caps, hard caps and the amount of drachma items one can buy in the shops. I doubt anyone will be reborn just to get uncapped stats, like +1 dam/+1 hitroll.

Well. From any of those ways, there are troubles. Or you get too much in long way, or you get too few in each reborn.

Maybe we should give up with idea of endless reborn and just set up like 5-10 steps of rebirths. With predefined bonuses for each(maybe even the same each time). But limited at top. So its really like hidden 10th class.

Which dont requires to rewrite game mechanics.

And if/when someone reach 5, we will be able to look back and see, if extra cycles should be added and what bonuses they would have.

Oh! That could even be set of permanent buffs player could buy at cost of deleveling(with all remort and quest cleaning side).

So player could each time buy only one buff, but the one he wants. And we could prepare several of those with different good and stong sides. So cap will be at purchasing them all(though some will be not good for some classes)

Actually, maybe its even fair to keep avatar shop in its place, and keep all purchases you made. Just dont reseting them. So you buy it once, and then going to reborn way for extra power. I understand, that we leave Josiah behind that. But there are different variants of solving that issue.

Such buff system even looks like extended avatar bonus shop. So it fits current logic even better.

Filk wrote: Maybe we should give up with idea of endless reborn and just set up like 5-10 steps of rebirths. With predefined bonuses for each(maybe even the same each time).

Well it seems to me the conversation is getting bogged down, and complex… at risk of nothing happening! Josiah kept his stats, good… I think there should be one other sweetener, and setting up stat bonuses for the next 10 rebirths is the easiest way to solve the problem I think.

I’ll propose an idea for discussion…

For each rebirth… +2 hit, +2 damage, 10 Bonus Spell Bonus, 10 Bonus Heal Bonus

I think Josiah got a good deal and if you’d all like to spend some time improving drachma eq at the other thread, I for one would be happy. :)

Gorka wrote: For each rebirth… +2 hit, +2 damage, 10 Bonus Spell Bonus, 10 Bonus Heal Bonus

And .2ac, 2 mr.

Quests cleaned. Remorted bonus granted. Avatar shop purchases persists.

Ok. Sounds like a good plan to me for next 10 years :)

1. So we agree that 9x40 bonuses should be kept and revealed at 9x40 - we only need to convince Breeze to grant that to Josiah.

Converting bonuses to exp/gold for leveling would be to skip the joy of redoing Valk again for the *teenth time.

2. You also agree that reborn can pick a bonus skill bonus. I like this idea better, than buying 10 bsb for all skills at the end or than filling caps with 10 skill bonus.

So, as you are reborn, you should be able to pick 3 unique bonuses, out of 11 secondary stats:

10 bonus spell bonus

10 bonus heal bonus

7 bonus flail

5 bonus stab damage

5 bonus circle damage

2 bonus weapon damage

2 bonus hand damage

2 bonus sys shock

2 bonus control undead

2 bonus charisma

2 bonus of all saves

You pick them at 9x40 before remort, and you get them at the next level 1. They accumulate through rebirths.

If you want to discuss bonuses, say:

• whether it’s a bonus bonus or a standard bonus

• when it is applied to your char (lev 1, scaling or at 9x40)

If not, then it’s hard to understand what’s being talked about.

3. I guess -0.2 +2dam etc look ok to me.

What’s left to discuss:

1. Bonuses: caps or standard bonuses or bonus bonuses?

Fluffy says that no 3 out of 11, just across the board.

2. Avatar light: exchange or a new one?

I feel that since we don’t get additional tri40 eq, no additional 9x40 light is necessary, but the reborn should get 3 free exchanges of tri40 eq and an exchange of 9x40 light stats.

I vote for most plain and simple variant. Which is easy to implement, and easy to understand.

So no mess with the caps. Just plain bonus bonus skill. Limited by 10 reborns.

Idea with some shop to choose stats from is hard to do, and really hard to balance. So i prefer to throw it away.

I dont think there should be extra 3x40 exchanges. You dont do it that often. And there is ingame option for that. So no real point. Though exchnage price could reseted to minimal value.

Extra 9x40 light actually might be really interesting addition. Its fair balanced, not giving real extra power, but polishing eq sets instead. And probably very easy to code it, since you need just to remove one flag from player data probably.

You are all trying to figure out how to power up your characters via rebirth, which really wasn’t my original purpose. My goal was just to enjoy leveling again on the character that I love.

Making it a core feature of Slothmud though definitely implies some power creep. Right now the biggest help to me would be an increased xp cap. +50% over the normal caps would be very appreciated.

If rebirth becomes a part of normal gameplay, and especially if doing it multiple times becomes a thing, then retaining avatar shop purchases and unlocking them at 9x40 seems reasonable.

Some flat boosts for reborn characters is reasonable, but uninspiring. The ability to choose from a selection of bonuses is more interesting. Purchasing unique boosts at the cost of 360 levels is very interesting, but I’m not sure what kind of boosts we could reasonably unlock that way. +50% duration on spells? -200 milliseconds on skill and spell lag? +10% bonus xp? +6% mana regen? 6 bonus DR? Unlocking a prime spell from another class?

I’m afraid we are all looking rather greedy at the moment! 350 billion xp and 350 million coins, the cost to reach 9x40 again, is an awfully high cost. It doesn’t even compare to maxing out your character on in the avatar shop, because you have to earn the 350 Billion without the power of a 9x40. I totally understand people wanting a big payout from it, but lets try to stay reasonable and not scare the imms!

This could be a big turning point in game design, perhaps the biggest since the start of Sloth IV. We definitely need to support the immorts. They have have never been more obviously listening and supportive.

I agree with Josiah.

Cept that leveling is fun, not a huge task.

Can see ppl wanting to retain more.. i would love too retain all cy has ..but agree its too much for a newbie. Just knowing what you will get/keep is helpful. This is more what i expected from the remort process than what happenned, but having both options will open it to more ppl imo.

Thinking about it.. 360 levels for over 4 k drac.. so essentially 10 drac a level.. good deal imo.

Josiah, I agree wholeheartedly.

Mainly, my concern about 9x40 light and tri40eq is for the compatibility with the new classo. A concern for player experience, if you will.

The reason I’d like bonus bonuses is precisely for something to accumulate across rebirths. Doing it just for ac/+dam/+regen seems too cheap, and the drachma shop is limited in the items, unless Teker codes a custom shop.

I did some research on other MUDs with remorts (the link sums it up nicely) and they way they do it is they let ppl add another class or skills. What we could add to rebirth is prime skills, which would make rebirthing very exciting and almost a must for any hard-working player, however, I find it’ll be hard to convince Breeze to add prime skills to the mix precisely for the reasonability reasons.

I’d also support some unique bonuses, however we as players are limited by our mortal thinking, and by the reasonability requirement. I don’t know what imms can do quickly and what they count as reasonable.

I’m not sure what you mean under “we should support the immorts”, but we definitely need to help make the feature as useful and enticing for it to be in demand, but not significantly overpowering.

Truth be told, be able to use another prime skill after rebirth seems very natural and appealing.

Quote: I vote for most plain and simple variant. Which is easy to implement, and easy to understand.

This is key, otherwise there is a good chance it does not get implemented. We agreed to doing this because it wasn’t a huge pain in the ass(although it was not simple either)!

Hopefully, we can come up with something which isn’t too difficult to implement and we can complete relatively quickly.

Filk wrote:

Gorka wrote: For each rebirth… +2 hit, +2 damage, 10 Bonus Spell Bonus, 10 Bonus Heal Bonus

And .2ac, 2 mr.

Quests cleaned. Remorted bonus granted. Avatar shop purchases persists.

Ok. Sounds like a good plan to me for next 10 years :)

Well. It seems that most of us who wanted to get some stats at rebirth got conclusion about that variant. Limited by maximum 10 rebirth. Made in form of permanent stacking buff(or 10 different buffs with same effect, or 10 non-stacking with higher one replaces previous one. Whatever)

Though i would offer 10% buffs duration here as well each time(we have such option already in enchantment stratum, so that doubtfully will be hard)

So probably we need to hear immortals opinion about that result. What do you think guys? Too weak? To strong? How hard to do&

1. Why cap at 10? Seems like an arbitrary number. Why not 7 or 15? If you rebirth 20 times in 10-15 years, what exactly stops you from having +200 heal bonus?

2. What about other things players can get for rebirthing? After all, the cost and time investment into it are immense.

It could be one of these bonuses:

• one prime skill, as it is customary to acquire skills on rebirths

• 25% less spell/skill lag to the maximum of -50%

• no lost concentration on spells

• 100% on skills

and one of these:

• immune to paralysis/fear/blind

• immune to chop

• no hunger/thirst

• rent with 50 more items, carry 100 more

• reduce move lag and/or cost to absolute minimum

• reduce avatar shop costs of 1bil/1mil gold per rebirth (in case of hp/mana/mv, 100mil/100k)

I’d imagine it’s fairly simple to do some of those, and not the others, such as skill/move lag or the shop discount.

3. The thing is, I see little incentive to rebirth past the first 2-3 times just to get -0.2ac/2dam/bonuses. I’d get 1-2% ac/damage in 6-12 months and I’d need to play for 33 years and 4 months more to recoup the time I spend leveling, rather than tanking at max ac. You could say I’d be increasing my max ac, but really, it’s not that impressive.

For mages it’s perhaps most worthwhile, because they get 7% above their sb cap. Clerics get what, 5%? For monks and thieves - maybe, but I wouldn’t count on it.

Others can rebirth just once to get the exp/honor bonus.

If we can get a prime skill each rebirth or major lag decreases/immunities, then it’ll make rebirths worth it for a long while, because there plenty of prime skills I’d love to have as a warrior. I’m sure everyone can find a prime skill he’d love to have on their main, too.

Also, it’d be awesome to be immune to blind, chop, or to run like hell underwater or have other bonuses.

Some custom effect are interesting. But that requires some new shop or other interface to do it. Along with effects itself. Which maybe little to hard to do.

Though i really like the idea of getting another prime abilities on each reborn. On 2nd you get all abilities of 2nd class. On 8th reborn you get all prime abilities of all classes. And thats logical end to reborn line in that variant. So it will be limited by eight times. No extra bonuses or caps raising - just skills and spells.

On each reborn you could pick any class order, so your gameplay each time could change drastically. That will add very big depth to the avatar life.

And plain bonuses we mentioned before are also could be done. Just as cherry on a cake.

1. I guess prime skills dependant on class order is logical, however we don’t choose classo based on that. Maybe it’ll add another dimension to classo picking for rebirthing.

Though we can change classos during rebirth, does it mean that perm skills persist once gotten?

2. I don’t think we need a hard limit on rebirths, let it be set by game mechanics and player preference.

If someone wants to be reborn for the 10th time, let him, he’ll just get whatever bonuses he’ll get for it.

That’s why it’s important to offer more unique bonuses per rebirth to keep players interested, though prime skills is a great incentive.

Teron wrote: Though we can change classos during rebirth, does it mean that perm skills persist once gotten?

I think its always depends on current class order. You just increase counter of how much classes after first you get each time. So on each rebirth you could change your play style totally.

Since currently status of skills learned doesnt changes, so no problems with changing order - you just cant use skills with classes beyond the counter on any taken moment.

About everything other - we should draw hardline somewhere where immortals agree to do some. If you push harder, we get nothing at all.

For next 8 rebirthes we get good improvement. When/if somebody will get them all, we could raise that question again and see, what is posible after and how balance changed after all these changes.

I dont see any reason at trying to build infinite rebirth cycle right now. I already told it before.

Yeah, I’ll let imms draw the line on additional bonuses.

So far it looks like this:

Exp bonus, honor bonus.

Quests are reset, personal eq is kept.

Innate -0.2ac +2dam +2hit +2mr

10 bonus spell bonus

10 bonus heal bonus

7 bonus flail

5 bonus stab damage

5 bonus circle damage

2 bonus weapon damage

2 bonus hand damage

2 bonus sys shock

2 bonus control undead

2 bonus charisma

2 bonus of all saves

Access to one more class to use primary skills from, starting from secondary

Avatar shop effects are retained and enabled at 9x40

Avatar light is either added or picked anew.

Apply retroactively to Josiah.

One or several of these, up to imms to decide, whether they are easy/reasonable:

• 25% less spell/skill lag to the maximum of -50%

• no lost concentration on spells

• 100% on skills

• immune to paralysis/fear/blind

• immune to chop

• no hunger/thirst

• rent with 50 more items, carry 100 more

• reduce move lag and/or cost to absolute minimum

• reduce avatar shop costs of 1bil/1mil gold per rebirth (in case of hp/mana/mv, 100mil/100k).

It kind of looks like you took everything that was suggested, and then asked for all of it.

Yup. Because one thing is to rebirth out of boredom or for drachma, another is to be reborn to gain a skill.

I left extra bonuses for imms discretion, which is close to not being implemented.

What’s your suggestion, then?

Teron wrote: Yeah, I’ll let imms draw the line on additional bonuses.

gee… thanks..

Teron wrote: Exp bonus, honor bonus.

that already happens by applying remort flag

Teron wrote: Quests are reset, personal eq is kept.

ofc

Teron wrote: Innate -0.2ac +2dam +2hit +2mr

10 bonus spell bonus

10 bonus heal bonus

7 bonus flail

5 bonus stab damage

5 bonus circle damage

2 bonus weapon damage

2 bonus hand damage

2 bonus sys shock

2 bonus control undead

2 bonus charisma

2 bonus of all saves

splork will most likely not approve that. at least not on each rebirth adds that amount.

go ahead and figure out the avatar shop cost of all that (if its in shop.. if not, guesstimate it)

while you are at it

Teron wrote: Access to one more class to use primary skills from, starting from secondary

not as easy to do as it sounds. there is code in place specifically to disallow that.

Teron wrote: Avatar shop effects are retained and enabled at 9x40

doable

Teron wrote: Avatar light is either added or picked anew.

there is/was already a way to do that in game.

need to check if its still there and if not re-enable it.

Teron wrote: Apply retroactively to Josiah.

ofc

Teron wrote: One or several of these, up to imms to decide, whether they are easy/reasonable:

• 25% less spell/skill lag to the maximum of -50%

• no lost concentration on spells

• 100% on skills

• immune to paralysis/fear/blind

• immune to chop

• no hunger/thirst

• rent with 50 more items, carry 100 more

• reduce move lag and/or cost to absolute minimum

• reduce avatar shop costs of 1bil/1mil gold per rebirth (in case of hp/mana/mv, 100mil/100k).

no comment at this time.

also seems our definitions of reasonable differ.

this seems to be turning from something i did on a whim to something nobody will be happy with, including me, if i have to spend weeks/months coding and testing.

bedtime.

Yes, the power increment of the ideas in this thread has amused me also.

I still maintain Josiah got a sweet deal, it just needed a bit more for all those avatars who purchased things at the shop… keeping avatar purchases would do that.

There is already a threads about improving avatar shop, and drachma eq… if these were indeed improved in the future, then the deal Josiah got (plus keeping purchases) is completely fine.

The cost of bonuses including ac/dam is about 300-350bil w/o considering it’s bonus. Irrc 300bil is what you spend on the few last 40s. Earlier I suggested picking 2 or 3 bonuses, but it was said to be too complex.

Also, didn’t Splork say it was a discussion? Am I wrong to assume that, as well as that it doesn’t require his stamp of approval, if there’s an agreement among imms (and maybe players) on the topic?

As for reasonable, it’s simple: we didn’t set goals/expectations for the task. And yes, our definitions differ, but it’s not a huge problem, if you clarify what is reasonable by your understanding.

Goal: keep the status quo.

Solution: leave it as it is.

Goal: make slight improvements that won’t change the game

Solution: keep avatar bonuses and change the light at 9x40

Goal: make rebirth something one would want to repeat more than once:

Solution: -0.2 +2dam +2hit +2mr, possibly with spell bonuses, etc

Goal: make rebirthing something that’d any avatar would want to do, rather than buying up the shop and quitting or remorting, and quitting.

Solution: offer them something they can’t refuse, such as a prime skill

If your only measure is that you can’t devote a lot of time to it, sure, let’s go by that. It’s true that I kept setting my expectations high, and within those expectations, I tried to remain reasonable.

If anything, the program can be improved over time and early reborns won’t be upset if the changes apply retroactively.

Also, didn't Splork say it was a discussion? Am I wrong to assume that, as well as that it doesn't require his stamp of approval, if there's an agreement among imms (and maybe players) on the topic?

I am and always will be concerned with balance(I believe the entire Immortal team is). I am also part of that Immortal team. In one thread, several of you clearly state that avatars are running wild in group areas. In this thread, you want to give those very same avatars even more power.

There needs to be a balance and it needs to come from discussion between all parties.

There also needs to be simplicity. If anyone here thinks that taking something which we did for one person(and would gladly do for anyone else) and then adding 20+ requirements is actually encouraging someone to code it is simply insane….

Again, there is a middle ground if you are willing to reach it.

In the gold thread, where Josiah and I killed large mobs, we spent lots of potions, a number of regen scrolls, and corpses, to get through the mobs. We didn’t even kill all the mobs, just skipped past the upper levels and hit Shiva for a good measure.

We felt that the time/effort investment was worth it to discover a fun place to level gold. Turns out, it’s not.

In a standard environment, where we don’t need to push ourselves to explore in a quick manner, it’d be unreasonable to solo or 2man most of these mobs.

And yes, I do mean that players should be rewarded for their effort. That there are areas that can’t interest and contain them (I’m looking at you, Mystica) is just another issue to solve.

And still, I’m willing to find the middle ground, provided imms and players clearly state what they want and expect. Without imm feedback we were just shooting in the dark here.

I wouldn’t call our area exploration ‘running wild in a group area.’ We burned through about 500k gold worth of consumables in order to ‘run wild in a group area.’ Exploring the changes to pagoda also took us the better part of an hour.

In return, we found the amount of gold we could have received from 5 minutes in elemental school. Our bank accounts were emptier after our rampage than when we started. Despite the heavy use of consumables, the xp was about five times worse than lyme grip xp.

Obviously Juggleblood had a different idea than we did about what we meant by an area that could be grouped for gold. Splork has stated that the area we are picturing will not be happening.

The changes to Pagoda have improved the area from bad to mediocre. I would consider bringing a group there now if all of the good areas have been cleared. The mud is better now. Thanks for your effort Juggleblood!

About additional prime classes. I understand that will not gonna be easy task. But maybe its the one is worth doing actually.

Because with adding this, we actually changing whole idea of classo to so high depth that most of avatars will return just to see how it works :)

With huge raise of interest to optimal coombinations, new tricks and tactics. Greatly raising replayability.

That variant is quite interesting if we decide to do it.

But i realize that somebody should pick that on his shoulders. So its only up to you imm-guys, if you will pick it up :)

About plain bonuses - Taron asking for too much imho. Most of it isnt really usefull that much to reborn for it. Also some stats are duplication each other.

Still think that -0.2ac, +2dam, +2hit, +2mr, 10 bonus spell bonus, 10 bonus heal bonus is enough. Only if little extra hp an mana beyond it.

But that will be really option only for boring avatars. Not next stage of playing like prime variant could be.

The “running wild in group areas” was brought to me before JB ever made the change to that area.

It had zero to do with you guys.

Teron wrote: .. snip ..

Am I wrong to assume that, as well as that it doesn’t require his stamp of approval, if there’s an agreement among imms (and maybe players) on the topic?

..snip..

every change i make i run by splork.

splork does the same with me.

whenever teker changes things, he emails us.

its how we keep the balance. we dont want to create newbies who can solo iblis/innkeepers.

hmm that could be fun. let make iblis into an innkeeper.

Well. Better comment about our topic related ideas. What do you think about them in terms of balance etc :)

So currently, it seems that what can be done is:

what Josiah’s got

retain avatar bonuses at 9x40

change/make new light at 9x40

retroactively apply to Josiah

And we are waiting to know if -0.2ac +2dam +2hit +2mr +10sb +10hb is reasonable enough.

Is it?

I already stated where i stand on those bonuses.

a few posts ago.

convince Splork to approve it and I see if it’s doable.

I may be willing to do 1 or 2 of those per rebirth but Splork still has to approve

especially since I would need to code the rebirthed store to make that work.

also I checked and I need to fix the automated avatar light trade in. not sure where the mudl for it went //who deleted it.

I actually like the idea of rebirth which is why we agreed to it. The only thing which concerns me is the fact that all of our 9x40s are power players. How quickly are they going to be able to achieve the next rebirth?

Could Josiah(or another character) literally ruin the game for others with 5 rebirth worth of powers? That’s a question for you guys and if you feel that these characters won’t ruin the game for others, than there isn’t an issue.

However, if people judge wrong and we have a group of overpowered rebirthed Avatars going crazy, the game only has couple of different options to fix the issue :mrgreen:

I am staying completely out of this one.

Good thread!

If we speaks about little stats increase(ie +2 to everything from posts above), thats just 10-20 extra damage for 5-10 reborns. And extra 1-2ac. Good, but doesnt seems like any gamebreaking addition.

If we speaks about prime skills transfer, which is way more interesting in terms of gameplay.

Max one player can get is:

• warrior: parry, second wind, riposte, massive critical hit

• monk: focus, presage,wraithtouch, kensai, prediction, deathtouch

• bard: adaptation to circumstances, dance with the dead, dance of the seven luck gods, call of the sidhe, - knights blessing, song of the mist, knights prayer

• thief: circle, apply poison, sleight of hand

• druid: shapeshift form to form, shield of thorns, canopied arbor

• necromancer: ritual of resurrection, wraithform, death pact

• mage: frostbolt, reflection, mirror image, blizzard

• cleric: dark mace, aerial servant, circle of healing, kylas delight

(Btw we dont have prime druids, necros and cleric avatar abilities. Maybe worth to think about it and add something. For druids that could be extra reduce lag and costs of shifts for example. For clerics and necros - auto assist of pets of their types. But thats just as sideline of topic.)

Adding power is something, that could be used at same time with other abilities. Otherwise its just diversity.

• So warriors skills are good. All usefull and strong. Common choice to pick for second class probably for non-warriors and non-druids :)

• For those, who grips focus is good. But not any op. Deathtouch is cool, but not real power difference between it or good thief’s stab with poison. Presage gives some utility, but not real power.

• I am not good with bards, but it seems that no real power in any of those. Support things mostly. Good to have, nothing to fear about.

• Circle is just another incombat ability, no power. Poison and sleight of hand complect is good addition for stabbers. Not seems as overkill. All thiefs abilities even adding some equality to monk/thiefs choice of combat oppeners. Atm monk seems more common and powerfull variant.

-Druid gives only shield of torns. Quite strong. With current extra regen that still worth to pick it second class.

• Necro giving juju and wraithform. That one really powerfull probably. Though juju is limited by basic non-necro prime order issues, but still impressive power gain.

-Mage gives only mirrors actually. And they are weak atm, too costly, too low effect. Frost is little better then wind, but only for blasters(and thats maybe bards and clerics only?). Who are limited by spell dam cap anyway to be compared to real mage power.

-Clerics gives servant and mace. Servant is solid addition because its passive. Mace is fairly balanced imho.

So some final coombination will be

Parry, riposte, massive crit, shield of torns, wraithform and aerial servant as passive effects. And juju. With downside effect of more mana consumption for keeping all new spells up.

All active abilities doesnt seem to me as overkill, because they all not will be better then prime ones. So better stab or deathtouch. Frostbolts instead of winds. And second wind. Thats probably all?

Which will take several years of constant intensive playing, dont forget.

Lets think what one player able to do with such power.

Solo Lucifer and other epics? Some ppl able to do it already. Takes plenty of time. Will be little faster. Maybe even twice faster. Instead of 12 hours for Lucifer, will be 6 :)

Worth to do if you need balls of Lucifer, or any other pop from epics.

But doubtfully for any other reason. Too long. And still will be too long after 8xreborns i guess.

We not adding that much power to splork epics.

And most ppl still prefer to group, because its more interesting and actually easy.

Group of such avatars will kill things way faster for sure. But remember, that most of them will be in rebirth process constantly for next several years :)

And on other hand, that will allow to add new hard areas. With increased power. And increased output though. New hard forges, new hard epics :)

Such additions will never ruin the mud in my opinion.

1. The rate of rebirths and power depend on how enticing rebirthing is, which depends on whether we get to use another prime skill after it.

If there are no prime skills to add, I wouldn’t rebirth solely for -0.2ac +2dam, because it’s a huge time investment.

In this case, I’d rather create a remort from the rebirthed char to play another class, even though I already made and leveled alts with the classes I wanted. Or keep playing the main char, just because (also because I’d level an alt to 5x40, not 9x40, and lose a chance of rebirthing).

If we get 1 prime skill, it’s going to be very interesting, but no concern with excessive power.

If all prime skills of a secondary and additional classes for subsequent rebirths, then yeah, there might be people with -1.0 +10dam bonus and some prime skills in 3-5 years. However, that’s good, but not game breaking, esp for other players.

We already have players, who can clear all Lyme solo areas in 1-2 runs, so there’ll be little change here.

2. If the concern is about prime skills, then yeah, that’ll make them somewhat more powerful, but not to the point of doubling or tripling their power (though a mage with riposte, massive crit and second wind would be close).

If you are concerned with powerplayers, make areas for them, don’t hope for them to fit into the areas that were made for 4-5x40s in S3. Even then, I doubt most ppl would solo areas that are above their power/skill, like the Spire or Mystica, if only out of boredom, so there needs to be a good balance of difficulty and reward for solo/group players and it’s achievable with some work on areas.

3. By the way. Whatever the power players have, whatever areas immorts create, players will not be able to level astonishingly much faster, because there’s a cap of 10mil. Even if there is an area or two with 10mil solo mobs, it’ll only make exping 20-30% faster for power avatars, while others won’t be able to solo there as effectively. Will it ruin the game for them? I doubt it.

As for me adding some reasonable bonuses for remort won’t ruin game.

At least it can’t be compared to some “features” that ruin game much more.

My top of these features:

1. Abusing battle ticks.

I can’t consider it somehow differently than cheat.

There are numerous ways to fix it, so if it wasn’t fixed yet it counts as feature.

But i personally count it as most gamebreak cheat and not going to use anyway.

1a) Second wind.

An additional to abusing battle ticks. Also, as was mentioned above, ruining others classes advantages, like necro’s order lag etc.

I think that shouldn’t be given to other classes, just remove it at all, or, at least leave it as warrior prime skill but make it’s cost significantly higher, like 50mv at all levels instead of 30mv at start and 15mv at avatar.

2. Coli potions.

How can we seriously speak about balance having these potions in game?

I’m spending less than 10% of my play time in arena and i have no problem with elite potions.

Their effects are just insane. We are talking about giving -2 AC for 10 remorts while we have potions that can be gained in may be 15 min. Potions with extra attack, max_dex, 2 max_con, insane healing, mana charge and so on…

Well… i’d say their effects should be reduced some and their pop rate should be reduced drastically.

3. Coli regen.

Not that game breaking feature, but… i can regen about 900 mana in 2 minutes in coli.

Giving 2mr for rebirth doesn’t looks too OP for me :)

Unlike paragraph 1, coli things can be removed easily. I really doubt someone was building his char due these coli potions/regen, so nerfing it shouldn’t hurt much anyone.

As for abusing battle ticks, fixing it will change some player’s playstyle too hard, so it’s not too good to implement at this time. But, it may be (and should be) a subject for discussion if another wipe would ever happens.

-0.2 AC +2mr +2 dam +10 bonus spellbonus +10 bonus heal spellbonus looks ok for me.

Or may be change 2 damage bonus to 1 damage + 1+2 weapon damage + something for monks. May be some hp/mana/mv too.

Prime skill things looks very interesting but… so unbalanced.

Prime skills are not equal at all. Some classes have strong prime skills, some classes have weak prime skills. Those who have weak have others advantages. I believe prime skills was added this way to balance classes better.

So, with having all prime skills we’ll end up with some classes definetely better than others, due to their innate abilities. Noone will take cleric or monk as prime class after rebirth.

We need to rework this system hard and it looks quite hard to implement, so it might be stop factor.

Zlodiak wrote: Noone will take cleric or monk as prime class after rebirth.

You are not changing your prime. Just 2-8 classes.

So as cleric you still have better supplicants(which should be adjusted though, i agree)

And as a monk, you get better grip modifier and higer caps.

As a cleric you get to use auto-assisting pit fiend, and if you do a few rebirths, you’ll get prime skills to protect you, like parry or shield of thorns, arriving at cl/dr/wa/ma or cl/dr/ma/wa, which would be a very powerful combo.

Btw, +dam +wd +hd = +2dam. In fact, +2dam is better, because it works for stabs, too.

As for coli potions, you can’t say you can pop a daily supply of potions in 15 minutes. It takes hours to do that, especially, if you want several group regen scrolls.

While they can be slightly reduced, also lowering the poprate would make them more of a joke, than anything. I’m not sure you’ve noticed, but they’ve actually made killing tough mobs easier and our runs longer, which is a big deal with having few people online.

Pit fiend still autoassist?

I remember one of smallish evil supps was autoassisting too, blood hound or imp.

But neither of them autoassist now.

Autoassisting pit fiend is good, but druid prime might be better - he’ll get better forms AND better regen.

Ok, even is cleric is good, what about bard? As i see it his only benefit is good combo of hp and mana.

Well, i’ll repeat, I think current balance is founded on both - prime skills and innate abilities.

If we’ll share prime skills we have to balance innate abilities better.

For now I think thieves will gain more than others because backstab of prime thief is much better and they haven’t others really cool prime skills. Also druids will get a lot because of best regen.

+dam +wd +hd looks a bit unhonest to thieves, grips will get 2 dam and stab only 1.

In these terms 2 dam looks better. I wanted to say that 2 dam may be considered as too OP, so alternate might be +dam +wd +something (not hd) for monks. Well, i have no idea what exactly, to have it still useful for monks and not too OP.

As for coli potions, i like the idea of group scrolls and lambs (while the rate can be slightly reduced for them too).

But potions are just terrible.

They gives insane boost compared to discussing 10xrebirth bonus and they have too good poprate.

The poprate is so good that you can’t even sell these potions to shops - shopkeepers always have too many of them already. So you can just buy potion for about 15k and get insane bonus immediately.

We are talking about rebirth bonuses and there is point of view that these bonuses can be too OP.

These potions are much more OP and everyone can get them easy. I consider it as much-much-much more gamebreaking effect compared to rebirth bonuses.

Yes, the coliseum drops have drastically altered gameplay. I feel like we should have to form a large group to kill big epic mobs, not just grab a couple friends and eat 4-5 restoration scrolls.

Blue potions and goblets and scrolls are extremely powerful, and shouldn’t be so easy/cheap to access.

I’d like to see the following nerfs to the drops:

1. goblet duration reduced to the same duration as godsanc, and/or weakened to -1.0 AC

2. token drops removed.

Finally, and I believe this addresses the rest of the problems, one of the following:

3. (hard to implement) - Limit pops to the first 100-200 kills per day in the coliseum.

4. Add a cost to enter the coliseum more than 10 times in a single day.

5. Dramatically reduce poprates.

I think #3 is the best fix. Players who like running xp in the coliseum can continue to do so, but they won’t get laden with pops. Anyone who wants coliseum loot will have to pop it themselves.

#4 would upset a few players a lot.

#5 would make fancy coliseum drops only available to the players who live there. In order to impact the flood of cheap coliseum stuff in the stores, the drop rate would have to be lowered so dramatically that the chances of getting anything good in a few runs would be unlikely. This would unfairly impact those who use the coliseum infrequently (as intended?).

+dam +weapondam +handdam is more balanced than +2 dam. That’s +20 damage on grips, and +30-45 on stabs. The thieves are still coming out ahead. If you want them even further ahead, give them +3 circle dam too.

There’s a reason godhand and nekode cost the same amount of drachma; the reason is backstab multipliers. Straight +damage is super strong.

The exact bonus aside, I don’t think we need to worry too much about overpowered characters with multiple rebirths ruining the game:

It will take many years for any player to grow far stronger than their peers. During this process they’ll be weaker due to low levels, and they’ll be contributing in or leading groups which helps everyone.

Second, our players are awesome. All of our active 9x40s are friendly players who regularly assist with raises/CRs, come help kill or cycle mobs when asked, and generally contribute to a friendly environment. Last week I asked War and Zuzu to help me hit a mob, and when I got back from dinner I found out that they’d continued hitting it and popped it twice for me!

I can’t see them having a little extra survivability or dps being terrible for the game.

I started coding. will recruit josiah to test before going live.

just a few decisions to make.

thanks for the input

Holy cow! :roll:

Mind telling us, what ideas you gonna implement after these decisons?

So we could prepare :)

The decisions that haven’t been made yet are almost certainly what we all want to know! Now, how are we going to come to a consensus on what we should get from a rebirth?

Based on what I’ve seen so far, I have the following expectations:

1. Rebirth will be a thing, part of standard gameplay, and available to all 9x40s.

2. Multiple rebirths will be a thing.

3. There will be a rebirth store, similar to the lyme mayor, allowing some customizable benefits.

4. The rebirth store benefits will be good but not gamebreaking.

Discussion is still wide open as to what kinds of bonuses should be available. I’d love to see skills from other primes become available, but I think it unlikely. If it does happen, probably not all skills will be available.

I’d like to see avatar shop purchases suppressed until 9x40 instead of erased at rebirth. Wiping purchases at every rebirth is a bit too punishing towards ‘casual rebirthers’ (seriously?) and dramatically favors those who rebirth constantly.

I think spell teaching lessons should also persist. Teaching spells like frostbolt and firestorm to 98% takes a lot of dedication over a very long period of time, and that progress shouldn’t be erased repeatedly. Spell teaching is a community building tool and it should be encouraged.

Other prime skills is the only thing that would draw me in to such a system. I understand the concern about high-power characters. I tried to answer the question of whether the mud could handle it, or would we die of inflation. But I didn’t come up with anything. I dunno.

Quote: The decisions that haven’t been made yet are almost certainly what we all want to know! Now, how are we going to come to a consensus on what we should get from a rebirth?

We aren’t going to:) The players took it upon themselves to take an idea brought to us by you, Josiah, and then ran with it!

This thread was incredibly active with ideas, suggestions, and requests. There was absolutely ZERO internal discussions via email among the Immortals or admin team. Breeze has begun coding it and I think we are all excited with what might become of our small 9x40 player base…

I will admit, I am a bit worried but that is my job :twisted:

After carefully reading through all the posts again, here is my proposal for the Rebirth shop. I think it’s about in the middle of what people were proposing. I hope it includes enough of a bonus to tempt those like Juggleblood into trying it, while being (barely) tame enough to not break the game. Each rebirth grants one character redefining skill, and two selected bonuses.

Pick one:

Quote: Forbidden Manual of Skill - Teaches a single prime skill. One read to max.

• Thief: Circle, Apply Poison, Sleight of Hand

• Warrior: Parry, Riposte, Second Wind, Massive Crit

• Monk: Focus, Kensai, Wraithtouch, Prediction, Deathtouch

• Necromancer: Ritual of Resurrection

• Druid: Shapeshift Form to Form

• Bard: Dance with the Dead, *Instrument Use (not currently a skill), Adaptation to Circumstances

Forbidden Tome of Knowledge - Teaches a single prime spell. One read to max.

• Mage: Mirror Image, Reflection, Frostbolt, Blizzard

• Bard: Call of the Sidhe, Dance of the Seven Luck Gods, Song of the Mist, Knight’s Prayer

• Druid: Shield of Thorns, Canopied Arbor

• Cleric: Dark Mace, Aerial Servant, Circle of Healing, Kylas Delight

• Necromancer: Death Pact, Wraithform

Amazing Aptitude

• You count as one ‘40’ higher towards supplication, shapeshift, animate/summon undead, awaken (max 7)

Pick Two:

Quote: -0.2 AC (maximum 5)

+2 hit (maximum 5)

+1 dam, bonus handdam, and bonus weapondam (maximum 5)

+10 bonus spellbonus (maximum 5)

+10 bonus heal spellbonus (maximum 5)

-2 to spell saves, -1 to other saves (max 5)

+1 million xp cap (maximum 5)

+2mr (no maximum)

+10 hp (no maximum)

+10 ma (no maximum)

Please respond whether you agree, disagree, or show us your own proposal. It sounds like it is up to us to figure this out.

1. One prime skill/spell per rebirth sounds reasonable: it doesn’t dilute the value of primes overall.

2. A 40 towards pets/forms is a good idea, let’s prolong the idea towards all classes, since monk and bard get bonuses too, as well as +2 to stab dam/circle cap, irrc. I wonder if also applies to mage/cleric caps.

Does it apply to eq (ie, 5x40 items, 6x40 items, etc)?

3. I’d love the secondary bonuses not to be capped, since people would supposedly rebirth more than 5 times to get a number of prime skills. At least it keeps the path towards 5+ rebirths wide open, rather than making this decision less appealing and 5 rebirths a common end of the road.

Can I pick two of the same? I would .)

If there are no caps on the bonuses, we shouldn’t be able to pick two of the same bonus.

The ‘40’ boost would not apply to caps or wearable eq, but only towards the listed class-restricted spells. It’s effectively a way to open up a few more prime skills like pit fiends and piasas, similar to the other unlockable prime skills.

If you are only picking 2 custom bonuses per remort, it will take 15+ remorts just to get all the capped bonuses. I think the caps need to stay in place.

There are some prime benefits intentionally unavailable in my proposal:

Druid prime outdoor regen boost

Thief prime stab multiplier and hidden bonuses

Warrior prime AC cap

Monk prime handdam bonus (or increased base damage)

Mage prime strong attunement

Necro prime increased control cap

Cleric prime reduced healing costs

Bard prime instrument use might deserve to stay unavailable, since the other primes all have an unavailable benefit.

Josiah wrote: Please respond whether you agree, disagree, or show us your own proposal. It sounds like it is up to us to figure this out.

Its too weak. And prime skill are so different in terms of power. Only few of them worth rebirthing. Maybe 3-4 are good enough. Some just pointless to pick - like deathtouch(because you will not use it actually, since its too late and next reborn after it). And for example zero usefull for shifting druids, that worth to be reborn for.

Same for “pick two bonuses” - its nothing. Too weak. And you even limit it with some caps.

Whole idea will end after 3 reborns when you get skills that worth it.

I prefer my variant with 7 reborns. At each of them you get plus one to counter that allows you to use skills of classes you have after your prime. At each reborn you could pick different class order so you will be using different skill sets up to the last reborn where you get all skils of all your classes.

With plain -0.2 AC +2mr +10 bonus spellbonus +10 bonus heal spellbonus. 1 dam, 1handdam, 1weapondam(thats reasonable part about dam bonuses, i agree). Its not that much to be limited by choice in shop.

I found 7-8 useful skills I’d rebirth for, though rebirthing just for sleight of hand seems too generous.

Josiah wrote: Please respond whether you agree, disagree, or show us your own proposal. It sounds like it is up to us to figure this out.

I like the idea and, especially, it’s turnkey presentation.

I suggest to balance it by uniting skills/spells in groups.

For example:

Necro: [Ritual of Resurrection] or [Death Pact and Wraithform]

Cleric: [Aerial Servant and Circle of Healing] or [Dark Mace and Kylas Delight]

Also i suggest to make druid’s regen bonus prime skill, SO, for druids it will be:

Druid: [Shield of Thorns and Canopied Arbor] or [Bonus Outdoor Regen and Shapeshift Form to Form]

I still vote for removing second wind, warriors have too many kewl prime skills already :)

Warrior: [Parry and Riposte] or [Massive Crit and Heavy Armor Proficiency(counted as for prime wars)]

Monk: [Focus and Kensai and Wraithtouch] or [Presage and Prediction and Deathtouch]

Mage: [Mirror Image and Blizzard] or [Reflection and Frostbolt]

Thieves have poor prime skills, may be we should add some bonuses to compensate innate bonuses, like:

Thief: [Apply Poison and Sleight of Hand and 1 hit] or [Circle and 1 dam]

I’ll skip bard because i’m not too good with his abilities, i believe it’s possible to divide them into 2 similiar groups.

With this division we’ll be limited to 14 rebirth, which is quite a lot and all of them looks quite attractive.

I also support the idea of picking two of bonuses and caps for them. But +2 hit, +10 hp, +10 mana and 1mil exp cap looks not so powerful as other bonuses.

i’d suggest minor changes, like:

-0.2 AC (maximum 5)

+1 dam, bonus handdam, and bonus weapondam (maximum 5)

+10 bonus spellbonus (maximum 5)

+10 bonus heal spellbonus (maximum 5)

-2 bonus spell saves, -1 bonus other saves (max 5)

+1 million xp cap +2 hit (maximum 5)

+2mr (no maximum)

+25 hp (no maximum)

+25 ma (no maximum)

+2 bonus undead control (maximum 5)

+2 bonus charisma +1mr (maximum 5)

Zlodiak, you put skills and spells in arbitrary couples. Not only sometimes unevenly, but why should it be one combo, not the other?

What if I want kensai and presage? juju and death pact, and wraith is good as it is?

Simply picking two (or two of the same class) would be more elegant, however I guess there can be only one skill from a class, or all, because otherwise it seems very odd to take two skills first, and the 3d skill later - and one skill from another class?

I don’t think Zlodiak’s grouping were arbitrary. He grouped the skills that belong together, and then broke up the strongest skills into different groups. I like the idea of grouping them in order to include the less attractive abilities.

Re: Fluffy (deathtouch)

Previously learned skills are not level-gated. As a level 1 reborn character, you already have deathblow, double stab, and avatar attack. A reborn monk would have access to deathtouch starting at level 1. That definitely makes deathtouch a viable selection for a serial rebirther. Your stab/grip multipliers suck until you get to 40 thief or 40 monk, but you can start using most skills immediately.

Spells are restricted to those you have the levels to cast. You can’t relocate around Newbatia with avatar’s blessing, while tossing firestorms at everything.

Josiah wrote: Previously learned skills are not level-gated. As a level 1 reborn character, you already have deathblow, double stab, and avatar attack.

I would like to hear confirmation on that tbh. Seems unlogical, but if true, that changes a bit. Not everything though.

Anyway, if speaking about shop, i guess better realization will be if divide effects into 3 groups. And give some points to spend on any of those.

Like 5 total.

3 points: Second wind, wraithform, shield of torns, pets auto assist, no order lag (and so on, not limited by skills actually)

2 point: parry, riposte, dark mace, frost bolt

1 points: shift form to form, mirrors, reflection, arbor, stats like 1 dam, or .2ac, or 2mr etc

But actually i want to hear Breeze opinion about what he thinking to implement now, and what ideas will never be in. To not just puff the air.

Filk wrote:

Josiah wrote: Previously learned skills are not level-gated. As a level 1 reborn character, you already have deathblow, double stab, and avatar attack.

I would like to hear confirmation on that tbh. Seems unlogical, but if true, that changes a bit. Not everything though.

Not sure what confirmation you’re looking for. This is definitely how the game works right now. I used warcry, counterattack, and gorge at level 1, and had more attacks than any newbie.

Maybe you’re looking for confirmation that this is intended (it wasn’t) and that it will continue to work this way (it probably will). It’s a cool perk.

Josiah wrote: confirmation that this is intended

Exactly. But that just to make things clearer.

One prime skill from another class seems kinda lame to me. Like over-the-clothes dry humping level of lame. I’d want to adopt a whole skillset from another class, not choose 1 skill. I’m imagining it should take someone about a year to hit 9x40 again? Make it fun.

juggleblood wrote: One prime skill from another class seems kinda lame to me. Like over-the-clothes dry humping level of lame. I’d want to adopt a whole skillset from another class, not choose 1 skill. I’m imagining it should take someone about a year to hit 9x40 again? Make it fun.

I agree, that one skill seems weak.

I also mailed Breeze with question about what he going to do. Guess he will not be against if i qoute that part:

Breeze wrote: in short : stuff gets reset same as josiah for the most part , remort

bonus, then you get X credits per rebirth which you can use to buy

a skill or stat or whatever we add to the rebirth store, similar to

the avatar shop.

So we could start building shop assortment kinda.

And since i agree with JB about “one prime skill seems lame”, i stating, that skill cost should differ. Most powerfull cost much. Least powerful cost minimal. So you could pick some setup you like. Even if that gonna be 3 different skills with weak or mediocre power - why not.

I offer to add 7 points. That offer some variety and makes good coombinations.

All 1 point stats picks cant be picked twice on same reborn. Not limited to pick on next though(so you could each time pick 7 different stats, yes. While not stacking same stat, that isnt too bad)

And skills costs

4 points:

• second wind

• massive critical hit

• deathtouch

• apply poison

• shield of thorns

• ritual of resurrection

• wraithform

• frostbolt

• adaptation to circumstances

• remove order lag

3 points:

• parry

• riposte

• heavy armor profiency(warrior variant)

• wraithtouch

• mirror image

• dark mace

• aerial servant

• call of the sidhe

• song of the mist

• dance of the seven luck gods

• extra 40 count in supplication/animate dead spells

2 points:

• focus (actually its direct kensai, if skills keeping on level 1 will be set as valid behavior. And same for other upgraded skills)

• presage(prediction)

• circle

• sleight of hand

• shapeshift form to form

• canopied arbor

• death pact

• reflection

• blizzard

• circle of healing

• kylas delight

• dance with the dead

• knights blessing (knights prayer)

1 point:

• 1dam 1 handdam 1 weapondam

• 2mr

• .2 ac

• -2 to all saves

• +10 to spell/heal bonus caps, +2 to other caps

• 10 spellbonus

• 10 healbonus

• 2 charisma, 2 undead control, 2 system shock

• 2 reduce damage

• 50 mana

• 50 hp

1. Agreed, JB, more skills is more fun.

2. Fluffy, I thought we agreed on bonus bonuses.

Raising caps isn’t nearly as good as buying actual bonuses, yet they cost the same point you can spend on +dam +hd +weap dam.

If you suggest standard bonuses, then they’ll be capped eventually by rebirthing, unlike ac, dam or regen, and to get +10bsb/bhb by your variants one would have to spend 2 points for it., which is a bit expensive, compared to a prime skill for 2 points or -0.2ac for 1 point.

That’s why it’s simpler and more effective to apply 10 bonus spell damage or heal for 1 point.

3. +2 to other caps is too low for flail, stab dam or circle, compared to +2cap to charisma/UC.

Not to mention that I suspect a bard would love to get bonus charisma, rather than +2 to his normal cap.

4. A ritual of resurrection is probably worth 3 points, not 4.

Teron wrote: 2. Fluffy, I thought we agreed on bonus bonuses.

Raising caps isn’t nearly as good as buying actual bonuses, yet they cost the same point you can spend on +dam +hd +weap dam.

If you suggest standard bonuses, then they’ll be capped eventually by rebirthing, unlike ac, dam or regen, and to get +10bsb/bhb by your variants one would have to spend 2 points for it., which is a bit expensive, compared to a prime skill for 2 points or -0.2ac for 1 point.

That’s why it’s simpler and more effective to apply 10 bonus spell damage or heal for 1 point.

We agreed while it was plain bonuses. Now we have whole shop. My intend was to shrink list of stats a bit. And i assume noone will buy charisma, uc, flail, kick. Because they are just weaker and not worth to spend a points on them. So i added their caps to overall cap group, just because “why not”. Values could be adjusted for each of them for sure, i am not really familiar about how big their values are ingame.

About heal/spell bonus. If you look at avatar shop, you will see, that 10 spellbonus is 30bils. And 1dam/hd/wd is 38bils iirc about handdam price(its 8? right?). So its close to each other already. And wd is overpriced a bit imo.

If you add 10 caps to spellbonus, price should be doubled probably. And i really think, that 10 spellbonus is near equal to 2 dam(without stab compared). So i put it on such manner. If you want to raise all caps, you do it. If you fill that you need more bonus to clear eq slots, you pick spell bonus.

Shrug. That could be made as separate 10 bsb and 10hbb. A bit too high imo. And i dont know what to do with other caps, because noone will ever pick it in separate manners. As least my feeling. Maybe it should be not 10, but 7-8 then to be compared with dam values? But in that case hd and wd should be bonused as well. So it makes alot of questions actually…

Teron wrote: 3. +2 to other caps is too low for flail, stab dam or circle, compared to +2cap to charisma/UC.

Not to mention that I suspect a bard would love to get bonus charisma, rather than +2 to his normal cap.

Nods. I said about that. Caps could be adjusted to more fair values. Bonus charisma is something even bard will never pick probably.

Teron wrote: 4. A ritual of resurrection is probably worth 3 points, not 4.

Well. I actually surprised that you agred on all other skills. Thought that will be heavy fight about values :)

I think Juju is powerfull enough to cost 4. Maybe i am wrong, i never played with it, so cant say how much power it would add actually. We could hear prime necro opinions on that probably. But adjusable anyway for sure.

I think the most balanced route would be to allow one prime skill every other rebirth while allowing bonuses every rebirth.

We already had people reach out to us to with what we gave Josiah. Add on top of that some of the proposals here and plenty of people are going to rebirth.

We are completely unsure of the rate people are going to rebirth but I firmly believe it is going to be much shorter than a year. We do know that the rate will increase with each rebirth, that is common sense. We are completely unsure of how much power we are adding to the game but I am pretty sure most of us agree its quite a bit. We are completely unsure of the affect its going to have on the game in general.

Personally, I feel that its always better to error on the side of caution and adjust accordingly, especially when we are entering something as blindly as we are…

Fluffy, I didn’t look closely at other skills, but resurrection stood out.

I am simply saying that bards don’t get charisma, but they should have the same fair opportunity to get it, even if they don’t choose to get it. But they need the fair chance - that’s equality. You can’t decide for them, especially, if you haven’t played a bard.

Personally, I’m 30-50% sure Sochi would pick +2 bonus charisma.

+dam +hd +wd = 38bil

-0.2 = 60bil

10 sb/hb = 30bil

It means that either we need to remove -0.1ac or add spell/heal bonus or make it bonus sb/hb.

Bonus bonus is the easiest way to handle addition of bonuses, rather than mixing and matching eq, caps, avatar shops, etc.

Yeah, I guess hd/wd could be bonus as well.

Splork, it depends how exciting you want the rebirthing process to be. If you want to turn it into a 15 year grind - without pwipes - then yeah, one skill every other year. In comparison, though, even one skill per rebirth seems not enough, because it’s a huge investment. I don’t see how 6-12 months of game play can be considered “not enough” to get one more skill. In 15 years the player base will change completely, you won’t see many ppl hit 9 rebirths, let alone 15 or 20 to get the most useful skills.

A 9x40 avatar can get about 500bil exp in 6 months. Since reborn are leveling from low levels, I don’t expect the leveling speed to be lower, than 6 months, unless the person is being helped a lot.

I’ll repeat that the power should be handled by tougher areas (and also by a more or less linear progress), not by being exceedingly and detrimentally cautious - it doesn’t hurt to be reasonably cautious. At least that’s how it’s done in WoW. They increase player power by a fixed amount every addon and add a raid expansion with 1-3 raid areas, and they did recently change power progress to linear from a geometric progression, because in 5-7 iterations different player levels were just too different in power.

So linear progress is probably what you mean by power balance, and I’d agree with that.

Also, what KPIs will you use to determine, if you are too cautious?

If remorts exp gain of “+X-50%” is less than 10%?

When exactly will you look at the KPIs and decide whether you’ve been to cautious or not cautious? 1 year, 3 years, or 5?

Without specifying these numbers, chances are rebirthing will remain as it goes in, and on any suggestion we’ll hear, “but it’s not clear if the players are too powerful, let’s not rush it’.

Perhaps we/you/all of us need to define how to measure power progress and provide linear metrics, which it’d follow.

Quote: Splork, it depends how exciting you want the rebirthing process to be. If you want to turn it into a 15 year grind - without pwipes - then yeah, one skill every other year.

I would be perfectly happy seeing the game be overpowered so we could wipe and restart with some fresh ideas so that the game wasn’t as much of a grind :mrgreen:

A sure way to do this would be to add all the prime abilities of another class every rebirth, add in all the fun spell/heal bonuses, dam bonuses, etc, and with the rate I believe rebirthing will happen. Trust me, if this happens even I will dust off my sloth shoes and play again but eventually it would lead to a restart or the end of Sloth because the game can’t handle it.

Quote: I’ll repeat that the power should be handled by tougher areas,

We can’t be expected to balance an entire game with areas created over the course of 25 years for a new feature when we can balance that feature around the game(as any good administration would do).

This would be a good time to accept Immortal applications if anyone wants to start building new areas for these players…

Its just my opinion and I have been wrong plenty of times. Only time will tell :idea:

I meant that whatever we do with rebirths, avatars at 9x40 will be however more powerful, than they were before. This would require tougher areas (they already need them, even).

I’ve edited my post to address the idea of linear progress.

This concept alone can handle power balance, and all we need to do is to define how to measure power, measure it and to scale it linearly through eq, avatar shop and rebirths.

The least we can do is to measure current power growth and continue it with the rebirths at the same rate, and worry about it being linear or geometric later.

Quote: it would lead to a restart or the end of Sloth because the game can’t handle it.

Well. That might happen. Who knows. But that will give new cycle at least for several years.

I dont think in nearest five years we will get to the end, even if 3-4 ppl will do 10 reborns for that time.

They still will not splork epics, i dont doubt about it :)

Atm we at dead end. Make reborn so cautious as you offer, and most will pass on it.

We have about 10-12 active or semi active avatars. I really hope that addition could return at last half more. And few of them even do 3-4 cycles probably. But still, thats several years of constant(!) playing.

Most skills are not that much power addition, as just huge diversity of play style. Some skills even dont work together.

And area fixing isnt that bad actually. You dont need to do it all at once :)

About immortal application - i offer to make some page with more technical details. I read mudl docs you gave to me, they see really unfinished. Tytorials dropped on the middle. No actual info about procs or kvps, except little introduction. Some information probably hidden in help files that not available to mortals. Maybe thats wrong. Why not give some actual info to ppl who want to know how it works inside before they make application :)

Quote: I read mudl docs you gave to me, they see really unfinished. Tytorials dropped on the middle. No actual info about procs or kvps, except little introduction. Some information probably hidden in help files that not available to mortals. Maybe thats wrong. Why not give some actual info to ppl who want to know how it works inside before they make application

I’ve started adding documentation to the wiki at:

http://www.slothmud.org/wiki/Category:Building

I haven’t moved over any of the old MUDL documentation but there is documentation there for the new calling forms I have added (I refer to these as MUDL2). I believe there is full sample code on every page. I’ve also added documentation for the new procs I have written (mostly for rooms). There are immortal help files for how to set different values on rooms, mobiles, and objects but most of the documentation I have seen for the procs has been comments in the code itself. It wouldn’t be too hard to add these to the wiki, just time consuming. I’m also happy to help with custom MUDL scripts.

Well I’m 9/10ths retired and a way off 9x40 anyway so my opinion might be invalid, but here it is nevertheless:

This is a good ideaIt’s a great idea. But it should lead to exciting possibilities. Having access to all the prime abilities of one’s next class at each rebirth would be the way to go. Getting one skill/spell every (other?) rebirth or similar would be a lot of hard yaka for little gain. I’m sure some would do it but I think I would pass.

Is there really a danger of things becoming too unbalanced? Maybe. But that’s years away. In any case, fortune favours the brave. Go for it I say!

Norks

Splork wrote: I think the most balanced route would be to allow one prime skill every other rebirth while allowing bonuses every rebirth.

We already had people reach out to us to with what we gave Josiah. Add on top of that some of the proposals here and plenty of people are going to rebirth.

We are completely unsure of the rate people are going to rebirth but I firmly believe it is going to be much shorter than a year.

I think I’m currently on track to hit 9x40 again in about 6 months, if I don’t burn out. I don’t see myself keeping up a cycle of rebirthing every 6 months; I’m playing more than ever right now because everything is new and exciting. That feeling can’t last forever.

I think every rebirth should be rewarding. A lot of people have already spoken up saying they wouldn’t rebirth for a few flat bonuses. Let’s make this a process everyone wants to participate in. I’m very much against an ’every other’ rebirth strategy.

If you want to slow down runaway power, we could take a page from other systems and slow down leveling as we advance. Perhaps slowly remove the remort bonus xp as we players advance through the generations? Players would still expect and receive large power increases from each rebirth, but the cost would be increasingly expensive.

I semi support Filk’s proposal. As prime skills are far from being equal. There are overpowered prime skills such second wind or shield of thorns. And there are balanced prime skills such as focus or dark mace. Finally there are useless skills such as knight’s prayer.

So I think op skills could be given every other rebirth. Balanced - every rebirth. And useless skills could be given all at once.

Filk’s point system is a perfect solution for that. However I’d set price of a op skill to 10 points(with 7 points given every rebirth).

Imho, we need to:

• define what we think rebirths will impact

• measure it over time for each player

• see how things change every 3-6 months.

Basically track remorts and their:

• hours played per level per 40 (e.g., 30 hours per level at 1x40)

• exp per hours played per 40

• gold per hours played per 40

• compare their exp/hours*2 with their original character, and see how rebirth affected them after 4x40 (the diff at lower levels will be drastic because of initial lack of experience, eq, etc)

I bet it’s possible to analyze logged statistics and show us the statistics, together with non-remorts, not only for comparison, but to see how added exp bonuses worked (we already know they did, but how well?).

Here are a few compelling cases on MUD analytics from the company that runs a number of commercial MUDs. While it’d be awesome to have a paid existing solution, like KISSmetrics, in the backend, I understand that we can afford only measuring smth ourselves. It’d still be awesome.

Josiah, you got it right that novelty will wear off and the reborn will slow down. I wonder if it’ll be sufficient to stop the escalating growth. Dr burned out on Mage before 6x40. You seem to have taken a pause at similar levels. We know 6x40 is a tough place to continue leveling, maybe we need to see how fast remorts go before and after 6x40 before we make leveling harder for you and them?

Speaking of which, I can only name Curate and Ip as remorts that got past 6x40. Dingo and Kirei are close, but not there yet, and Kirei is considering playing Fluffy through rebirths. Who else is a remort that got past 6x40?

And yeah, I agree that rebirthing should be worthwhile and exciting. Rebirthing for a skill every other rebirth isn’t.

re: mudl

you dont learn mudl by reading wiki/docs. you need to try it. thats the only real way to get the feeling behind it.

re: rebirth shop

i havent decided what to put there yet. maybe i wont even do prime skills but reborn only skills. who knows. just depends on my time/motivation/imagination. nor have i really decided on reborn credits (temp name) per rebirth.

re: other stuff

tl;dr. need to make time to read complete thread again whenever i get more than 2 hours off per day from work/sleep cycle.

For those who follow along on the crier but haven’t been logging into the game, here is the helpfile for rebirth. Currently it is a very superior implementation of ‘remort’ character concept. A 9x40 can reset their levels and quests and get a lot of replay value out of the game having to make a new character. We currently have 3 rebirthed avatars, with more expected.

It falls short of the infinite progression / repeat-ability that was speculated on earlier in this thread, but it is still awesome and more fun than being stuck at 9x40 forever.

Quote: help rebirth

REBIRTH REBORN

There are 2 types of character rebirth.

Option 1:

levels reset to 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (no reroll at 8x1) [easier option]

Option 2:

levels reset to 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (with reroll at 8x1) [harder option. allows partial reclass]

Epic Army Rank/Honor is unchanged

Age is reset to 18

XP is reset to 0

Keep gold

Exploration is reset

Drachma is reset (so spend it wisely.. no reimbursements if you forget)

Quests are reset

Remort Bonuses enabled for the character

Retain Skills, Spells and learned..

Retain vaults and equipment

(equipment level restricts still apply)

(Reborn) tag before your name on the who list

Keep avatar light (option to recycle it to change stats will be added soon)

1/2 avatar bonuses.. that is,

for every 2 of something, 1 carries over until 9.40 at which point the full bonuses take effect again.

to reiterate - no refunds will be given on anything and rebirth is permanent.

this is what you get at the moment nothing more or less.

If you would like to be rebirthed please contact Breeze (until the rebirth proc is complete and tested)

Rebirths are manual so will be done as I get time to do them and

any unintended effects caused by rebirths are subject to change.

(meaning, for example, if you are a level 2 warrior casting firewind, we have a problem)

Good Deal! 8) Thanks Breeze.