I know for the most part my post will get ignored by immorts and flamed by others and well that is okie I am used to it, but I really need to vent
I have been on this mud since 1991 and I have seen a TON of good changes and this is a great mud overall. But this post isn’t about the greatness of the mud or the great changes it is about some more recent last few years stuff that really has me pissed off.
We are told that this is supposed to be a group mud yadda yadda but yet people in groups are being screwed because when necros use summons which btw they should b/c they are necros and it is part of their class the group can get screwed out of exp b/c no one cares enough to code it right to let the whole group get exp instead we are told well they shoudl flee them or dismiss them yadda yadda.
I don’t think it is right that the whold group gets screwed out of exp just because they are trying to play their character to the fullest and didn’t get them fled in time for one reason or another. This has been brought up by a ton of people a ton of times and we are just told tough luck deal with it
we aren’t going to take the time to do anything about it
Then you got the issue of the lovely new “protection” system which is a Screw you system not a protection system. I have lead a lot of groups and will continue to do so HOWEVER with that being said they need to do something to modify this damn system. I am sick of getting killed b/c of the group chaosing and falling and me getting too many damn attacks and don’t tell me to man back .. as is the system wasn’t stupid enough lets add stumbling to the mix. I am to the point that I want to tell all newbies I am sorry you can’t join b/c all you do is make the groups fall and you have very little to offer in return for all that chaosing. I do NOT want to tell newbies they can’t join but it is getting to the point I have little choice because unless we have a ton of people for the frontline which we rarely do all they do is add to the numbers of the back line for no appreciable benefit and cause the line to chaos. So you tell me how this is better than the system we had before where it really didn’t matter if they back people were protected or not just the top few really only mattered. Why can’t we have a protection and a front and back line system where the tank can better protect the frontliners instead of the mob focusing on the weakest person on the frontline. I know this is a whole lot of damn ranting and that is okie everyone says shyla is a whiner and you are right I am.
But I am also a good leader and a great player and what I am feeling is NOT just my feelings it is what others a ton others have stated also. i would just like them to take the time and put in some adjustments to “fix” some of the issues that people still complain about rather than saying tough live with it.
We have mobs that throw people out of rooms so you can be there they entire fight and miss out on the honor/drachma/exp because at the last second you get tossed out how fair is that? I have no problem with you getting tossed out but i do have a problem with you missing out on the reward by 2 seconds when you were there healing blasting etc the entire fight.
anyways those are my 2 rants for the day and thankyou for letting me vent
nothing will change but I have at least be allowed the chance to vent how i feel to help me cool down a bit
Shyla
First of all, I played Sloth a long time ago and only started playing S4 about a month back, and I have to say I am very impressed with many of the changes that have taken place. Lots of really, really cool things have been implemented in the game and it’s a credit to the current and past immortal teams.
Equally, there’s always things we can improve and as a necro prime, I couldn’t agree with Shyla more on the pets issue.
Playing a necro prime means that you can’t use your most effective weapon in groups of any size. I am closing on 4X40 now and I have never been able to 2man for exp with anyone, even with another necro. Even if we are not talking about exp, but cycling eq, if I 2man things with another player, the mob is ALWAYS switching to attack me. Is this intentional? Does this make sense? Is it not enough that you have to front up to use pets? Why do you have to become the tank just because you’re using pets?
In large groups, I am forced to either not use pets at all or use pets and have to flee them (which doesn’t always work) or use pets and run the risk of sponging a whole group’s exp. I have seen that this happens with other people using pets in groups too - often we’ll spend half group mana killing a 50/60 mil mob only for someone to accidentally sponge the exp.
If a mage firewinds a mob to death, the whole group gets the exp. Should it not be the same for necros?
The incident that I think may have sparked Shyla’s post is a large group killing Regal King in volcano. Leader specifically instructed everyone to use pets and by the time the mob was close to dying we were running very short of mana. I had the choice between fleeing pets and risking tank/others dying or keeping pets there and risking sponging exp. Neither are good options if you ask me!
i have always thought with the protect system we have we should have had 3 rows anyhow, front line true tanks -10 and higher middle row
melee damage thiefs necros monks ect back row caster and with third row
casters cant melee just cast but dont get pulled into other rows on chaos. any game i have played or book i have read do i rarely see a wizard wacking people with his staff no he stands way back and blasts them to hell you know.
third row would be a good reason for archery to really come into play here too
ps
since this a stringed named random complaints i want my freakin ten drachma!
couldnt agree more with comments on necro use of pets in groups … I’m a necro yet in group I have to be a tank or a healer …
if I tank I am auto targetted by mobs (think because I’m a caster in the front row)
if I’m a healer I have a lower nat maxma than any of the other caster prime and lower than bard prime too I think (though I cant confirm this last)
Necros do have some advantages over some other classes when soloing some mobs so I can understand (if not agree with) the sentiment that they shouldnt be buffed, but this isnt a buff / nerf necros discussion, its a buff / nerf groups discussion.
This also would not unbalance groups … groups can already use pets (with fleeing / dismissing) so this isnt about making groups more powerful, its about making them fairer and less annoying … in essence making the game more enjoyable.
Thraxas
playing Necro Prime since 2005
I remember when Sloth used to be less whiny. I miss those days. Folks didn’t complain about every minor inconvenience, or anything that made them actually have to think and plan ahead five minutes. There was actually a challenge from time to time.
Now, things are so easy. Everyone is homogenized thanks to 8 classes, with in sufficient variations. Greater hp/mana buffer too, for the aforementioned reason, so things are less likely to one shot you now. 1.1k hp is no longer an achievement, but the norm. For stabbers.
You don’t even need to really hunt for spellbooks anymore; get to 6x40 and put it in your title, and someone will do the work for you, even find the peri for you, and tell you how to do everything so you don’t have to do any troublesome learning.
Back to the thread topic.
My random complaint?
- Please fix squelch/notell: I remember back when I was active, getting asked every time I log in whether or not I needed a spell got fairly annoying right quick. Extend it to the public channels too!
Necros and pets. Using a class to its “fullest” extent. While we’re at it, let’s let all thieves backstab in a group, all monks deathgrip in a group, all warriors parry every incoming attack in a group, have bard songs be cumulative with each other in a group. Multiclass? Adaptability? Some semblance of balance? What’s that? Adding so much extra chop power without any negative cost is a great idea, since anything negative by definition is bad. Or something.
Letting necro pets split exp, their main drawback, and then you no longer really need group members (hm! Why are necros such reputed soloers! Must be their dashing good looks). Just swell your group’s ranks with necro pets. And now that everyone’s a necro, the army size will be monstrous, not to mention the time it’ll take to coordinate everyone trying to summon largely superfluous pets. And there’s still that fun 8 undead limit before they start bickering/disengaging, but I’m sure that will be the next whine folks will complain about. Either that or whine that the regen after summoning pets is too long. Or pets are too weak. Or that they looked at you funny. I miss the days of eq groups where exp didn’t matter and all that mattered was making the mob dead.
I remember two manning with followers. I also remember three and even four manning! With followers. Sometimes I got the exp, sometimes my friends did. It all balanced out. Or not. Who cared? No one was really keeping track. We still had a large net positive, and we enjoyed the experience. Bloodloss? Shrug. Whatever. More gutting please! Let’s stand here and bicker, or just get on with our sloth lives.
I also remember with grim distaste standing around forever trying to fix protects, especially when a new fellow joined or people went afk or people who’d join then promptly go afk. And then all the non protters. Ugh. This tactics system simplified things greatly. You can decide front/back liner in several seconds, and the group can move before the tank’s autolight trigger/stone skin falling message kicks in.
Oh noes, you died. There must not have been anyone around to raise you immediately. Do you want every run to be the same, where there is no risk of death or any deviation from the routine when killing the same exact mobs over and over and over again? I remember falling asleep often in the supposedly high danger desert/et/dot/yuanti runs because they got so repetitious with no real challenge nor change in Minstrel’s absurdly efficient pace.
Back then, death actually held some weight. Now, scavenging mobs are the greatest inconvenience (that and lack of a key). So I lose x million exp. There goes y hours of playtime. Oh well, it’s just playtime. It’s when that time becomes “work” that I have to stand back and reassess how much fun I’m actually having.
Pardon me, digressing.
Folks will always whine. Some more than others. A few, a LOT more. Resolve one thing, appease them for a while, and then they’ll come back and whine some more about something else.
Shyla, you yourself acknowledge that the immortals probably won’t respond to this. Behind that faux nonchalant attitude, ever wonder why? Is it because immortals are evil, callous beings that are out to squash all fun by wielding the nerf stick blindly left and right? Maybe they get a kick from ignoring players and kicking puppies. Or maybe it’s because they’re human too and are understandably fed up with all the whining?
Exp should be given for just spending mana; cut out all the fuss in the middle. Or better yet, just for logging in. It seems like the illogical conclusion to this line of thinking.
tldr!
Acedia
playing Dead since 2005.
Acedia +1
Acedia wrote: I remember when Sloth used to be less whiny. I miss those days. Folks didn’t complain about every minor inconvenience, or anything that made them actually have to think and plan ahead five minutes. There was actually a challenge from time to time.
Sorry, I skipped the rest of the “let’s not ever make any constructive criticism/provide feedback” bull.
I’ve been playing this game since 1999-2000 and people always had complaints, no matter how hard or easy the game was. Generally, a lot of the time there were genuine bugs/problems with the game that didn’t get fixed for a long time.
I am sure that was because the immortal team was busy doing more important things/building new areas/having an RL etc, but the fact is that almost every time the reason for not fixing bugs was not given, instead we got the same rubbish of “the game is supposed to be challenge, hence this totally pointless thing that happens”. Then, a couple of years down the line, the immorts would finally get around to it.
I think the issue of necro pets sponging is hardly a useful or even challenging feature. It’s just a bad piece of coding, simple as that. Equally, we all understand that the imms work hard and do a great job for the mud, so all we’re saying is… when you can get ‘round to it, please fix it.
I think that’s fair enough.
Acedia wrote: I remember when Sloth used to be less whiny.
No you dont … or if you do you’re wearing rose tinted specs
I’ll take about 30 seconds to scroll right to the bottom of the crier thread and pick randomly pretty much any thread thats not an area opener or new item details, you’ll find something like this:
http://www.slothmud.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=263
Its a long thead but I loved the theme that in 2004 in amongst he moaning and whining theres pleas to return to the good old days when players didnt moan … those days never existed … interestingly many of the whines of 2004 (and before and after) documented on the crier have been introduced into the game very successfully and beneficially. Thats not to say everything that gets whined about should be introduced, but does emphasise that player engagement with the development process through the crier has been a valuable process … god help us if we all follow Archadias advice and stop actively engaging with those that develop and run this game and just put up, shut up and stagnate.
i remember when sloth used to have a lot less thraxas
oh, and in memorandum of my counting topic
Acedia +2
reboog wrote: i remember when sloth used to have a lot less thraxas
I doubt it
Acedia +3
Truly you are something, Thraxas, gifted with the ability to remember my memories better than I do! Perhaps you can tell me where I left my rose colored glasses; I need to learn shocking grasp.
Sloth WAS less whiny at one point, but that does not mean it wasn’t whiny at all, nor that it was by any means low. There used to be less crime in America in the past. Does that mean crime didn’t exist back then? Again, “Folks will always whine.” Sloth is no exception. It’s just that since s4 began, some people have managed to increase the number of whines to fairly ludicrous degrees.
Whining and complaining is not constructive criticism. Sure, it classifies as feedback, but not of the positive variety. “I die too often because of tactics!” “I want my drachma!” “Let necro pets split exp!” “The game is broken!” “It takes too long!” “Gas prices are too high!” “Bailouts are stupid!” “It’s too hot!” “It’s too hard!” There. Some random complaints as per the thread topic.
Presenting possible solutions, actually trying to have a civil discourse, not labeling the thread “complaints”, and people tend to be more inclined to help resolve the issue. But it’s true: sheer volume of complaints (both in decibel and number) does generate results, since the governing body does tend to take actions to appease the whiny individuals simply to get the annoying whining to stop. It’s not a very good way of resolving matters, but it admittedly does ‘work’, sometimes.
I’ve seen my fair share of bugs and loopholes that have since been resolved both in the player’s favor and against. “No exp split on necro pets” I find is a wise decision that makes some certain large fights more exciting. Like the self-chop proc on choppers, they help break the tedium of the grind. I relish the tension when using pets in large groups, namely when the mob’s at ph or awful. “Hm! How long will I play chicken with this mob? Should I wait before fleeing pets? Will I survive? Just one more round… argh! Tick coming! Should I spam order followers flee or guts? Maybe winds! Or I can cap horribly and be ostracized for a few mobs! Decisions!” It was even more fun when tackling monstrous epics and quest mobs, since the stakes were that much higher. Good times.
When you look beyond your own character and at the game as a whole, it really is a non issue. For such a dramatic increase in sustained chop power, not to mention the hp buffer, the one drawback is that you might not get x amount of experience. For ONE kill. Fine, let’s say TWO. Or THREE! shocking gasp! (thank you rose colored glasses!) Out of how many? Not like the imms gave us things like, I dunno, deathblow, or high damage spells with oodles of +spellbonus, or strikes, stomps, broadsides, circle stabs with a heap of +damage, or the ability to flee pets (with a comparable failure to order chance akin to losing concentration on spells), or simply banishing them, to reduce the chances of this happening.
So I rather like the no split on pet kills (a differing opinion! shocking gasp!). I’ve lost hundreds of millions of exp to it, but so what? Should I whine about it, or get over it and move on?
In conclusion:
Acedia+4
Acedia +5
Anybody who believes that necro pets & the experience regarding them is bad coding is seriously delusional. It is not an oversight and we will NEVER fix this issue because it is a balancing issue. If there were not repercussions for this type of game play, the mud would become Necromancer dominated and small group oriented. This is exactly what Jake and I do not want to happen.
There are several other smaller reasons but these are the two that come to mind when we discussed this issue nearly eight years ago now.
In regards to grouping, tactics skill, and front/back line, we have discussed this many times. The vast majority of the mud believes this is much better than the old system. The administration believes it is much better. Groups are join and go. As with everything, it may be tweaked but this particular change will not be removed. The old protect system sucked, period. Everybody agrees with that, Shyla included. Or at least she did during Sloth III.
Nobody here is bothered by constructive criticism and many changes have been brought about by it. Player opinions are taken into account much more than any other version of Sloth and makes a much tighter bond between player and administrators. Bug reports, balance issues, etc are taken seriously and adjusted as quickly as possible.
Splork
Splork
Splork wrote: Anybody who believes that necro pets & the experience regarding them is bad coding is seriously delusional.
What I said was that necro pets stealing group exp was bad coding. Are you saying you intentionally made it work like that even though you could have just as easily made pet kills split exp with the whole group? :roll: Really?
I bet you could think of half a dozen more elegant ways of preventing necros from dominating the game (btw, everyone uses pets, not just necros).
I think overall, the pets system is coded brilliantly btw, I was commenting on a specific aspect of it that does need fixing.
not sure how the rules work on this one but lets give it a go:
Acedia -6
Shyla +2
Splork +1
Indomniac +1
Thraxas +1
reboog -8
Did I miss anyone out? is there some sort of exam I was supposed to make these posters sit to work out the marks?
As an aside to the above that seems to be the main purpose of this thread now:
I’d agree with Splork that necros are not badly coded, however like many things could be better (not a criticism more either a statement of the bleeding obvious / an observation)
My view is that not letting pets split xp dosent make sense to which I’ve presented my view and supported this view with cogent arguement (rather than nonsensical ranting … please try to follow suit in future Acedia)
I’d also agree front and back row is a huge and not to be underrated improvement over gt PROT BACK ALL »» gt hold PROTS not fixed »» gt check prots all »» group cr … someone died and prots werent fixed. Its a huge huge improvement, but not perfect … shyla does however make a very valid point that now we all have man back scripts coded and the process of manning back is taken care of entirely by clients it adds nothing to game beyond random deaths on stumble … man back lag for a healer is annoying esp if they’re the only healer … man back lag for a leader is perhaps more problematic …
I can think of a few different approachs to solving the problems shyla raises … maybe a 3rd row where no melee damage can be done, but dosent affect the front / back balance so lowbies can join without dying, maybe balance front and back on total levels rather than number of players, maybe maybe lots of things but there is no getting away from the fact that its far better than ‘Prot Back Please … running check prots’,
Do I think I’m the only person with a valid view? No. Do I think one of the above is the only solution? No. Do I think something needs to be done? Not really. Do I expect anything to change? No. Thats not a problem to me.
The pet xp split issue, yes I hold the view that it makes no sense for pets not to split xp, but so what, if they dont then sometimes necros will gain more xp than they should on a single kill and upset a group deprived of its due it dosent happen often and despite using pets often in groups I’ve never once stolen a kill with my pets in anything other than 2 man … I know other players have more frequently but still not often … go figure.
When a topic of current interest gets raised, and views are posted on the crier I’ve always disliked the way that these views are flamed as whining and the topic hijacked by stupidity as though doing so is a winning arguement rather than mindless and needless drivel.
Indeed yes flame me back, call me a whiner, tell me I’m not allowed to hold or shouldnt express these views on the crier, hijack the thread to continue the heal and hurt poll, thats far more fun and productive than actually having a view of your own.
Thraxas
Yes, pets stealing experience is intentional. Changing this would require about one minute of a coder’s time but like I said, this is a balancing issue and will not be changed. The repercussions of necromancer pets in groups has the desired effect which we( administrators ) are looking for. There may be other ways to control the issue as well but we are not willing to experiment with an issue which we feel works exactly as we intend it to and does an extremely efficient job preventing problems which we do not want to become issues in regards to necromancers and grouping.
Front/Back row fighting is not perfect but its much better than the previous system. I’m sure we will continue to make changes and adjustments, as we see fit regarding this topic.
Splork
@Thraxas
Acedia wrote: Letting necro pets split exp, their main drawback, and then you no longer really need group members (hm! Why are necros such reputed soloers! Must be their dashing good looks). Just swell your group’s ranks with necro pets. And now that everyone’s a necro, the army size will be monstrous, not to mention the time it’ll take to coordinate everyone trying to summon largely superfluous pets. And there’s still that fun 8 undead limit before they start bickering/disengaging, but I’m sure that will be the next whine folks will complain about. Either that or whine that the regen after summoning pets is too long. Or pets are too weak. Or that they looked at you funny. I miss the days of eq groups where exp didn’t matter and all that mattered was making the mob dead.
Acedia wrote: “No exp split on necro pets” I find is a wise decision that makes some certain large fights more exciting. Like the self-chop proc on choppers, they help break the tedium of the grind. I relish the tension when using pets in large groups, namely when the mob’s at ph or awful. “Hm! How long will I play chicken with this mob? Should I wait before fleeing pets? Will I survive? Just one more round… argh! Tick coming! Should I spam order followers flee or guts? Maybe winds! Or I can cap horribly and be ostracized for a few mobs! Decisions!” It was even more fun when tackling monstrous epics and quest mobs, since the stakes were that much higher. Good times.
When you look beyond your own character and at the game as a whole, it really is a non issue. For such a dramatic increase in sustained chop power, not to mention the hp buffer, the one drawback is that you might not get x amount of experience. For ONE kill. Fine, let’s say TWO. Or THREE! shocking gasp! (thank you rose colored glasses!) Out of how many? Not like the imms gave us things like, I dunno, deathblow, or high damage spells with oodles of +spellbonus, or strikes, stomps, broadsides, circle stabs with a heap of +damage, or the ability to flee pets (with a comparable failure to order chance akin to losing concentration on spells), or simply banishing them, to reduce the chances of this happening.
So I rather like the no split on pet kills (a differing opinion! shocking gasp!). I’ve lost hundreds of millions of exp to it, but so what? Should I whine about it, or get over it and move on?
Seems like cogent arguments to me. Also nice how she even responded to the other replies as well, discussing the ideas presented by others and addressing them in a fairly roundabout (if not heavily sarcastic) manner.
Acedia +7
Thraxas wrote: When a topic of current interest gets raised, and views are posted on the crier I’ve always disliked the way that these views are flamed as whining and the topic hijacked by stupidity as though doing so is a winning arguement rather than mindless and needless drivel.
Indeed yes flame me back, call me a whiner, tell me I’m not allowed to hold or shouldnt express these views on the crier, hijack the thread to continue the heal and hurt poll, thats far more fun and productive than actually having a view of your own.
When the thread is named “random complaints”, it’s hard not to view it as whining.
Seems to me that she is trying to present a different viewpoint, but you flame her for doing so, saying in effect “Oh, you don’t remember things right. I know how things were. You’re hijacking this thread! You should be complaining!”
And hijacking the thread with this martyr act as if doing so is a winning argument isn’t a very good discussion tactic nor particularly productive. It’s usually a last ditch plea, the whole “I have nothing else to discuss, so I’m going for overdramatic rhetoric instead!” sort of deal. I know you have more ideas to discuss, so please present those instead.
No one’s even slightly hinted at telling you that you shouldn’t express your own ideas; I’m not really sure where the folks here are even getting this from. All I read is “Stop whining about non-issues/be more civil about when addressing others”. If you (not addressing you in particular Thraxas) can’t do either of these things, then I can see how this would be a problem.
@Everyone else
Anyways, at the crux of this non-issue,
Thraxas wrote: The pet xp split issue, yes I hold the view that it makes no sense for pets not to split xp, but so what, if they dont then sometimes necros will gain more xp than they should on a single kill and upset a group deprived of its due it dosent happen often and despite using pets often in groups I’ve never once stolen a kill with my pets in anything other than 2 man … I know other players have more frequently but still not often … go figure.
So let me get this straight.
Pets are already used frequently in groups.
You boast about never stealing a kill in a large group.
Other folks might steal, “but still, not often”
So… what’s the problem?
At the risk of not presenting a “cogent arguement” [sic], I will say that personally (speaking for me, not for any other immortal/the immortal staff), when folks whine, I am quite disinclined to answer. I watched as mug spammed increasingly vulgar pages to the immortals, threatening to continue to do so unless he got his 10 drachma. I myself had just gotten back from work, and didn’t even know drachma was even handed out. Since I didn’t know what was going on, and based on the tone, had no interest in getting involved, I must be an evil imm.
This tactics complaint of Shyla’s is nothing new; she’s brought this and other whinings up so many times before I must admit I have started to tune her out. Each time, she’s told essentially what Splork said in his reply in this thread. “The vast majority of the mud believes this is much better than the old system. The administration believes it is much better.” But like most whiners, if they don’t get what they want, they just keep at it until someone eventually acquiesces out of exasperation. There are countless bugs, complaints, whinings, whatever have you, that are constantly addressed quite frequently [see 95% of Isabo’s posts], but they brought to attention in a civil manner and through the proper channels. That and they’re often not as publicized (not everyone’s this whiny).
Anyways, you have gotten your response Shyla, two even! The immortals have not ignored you. So please stop acting like some martyr. I stand with Splork on both counts: that necro pets and all pets should not split exp, ever, and that tactics is a vast improvement.
Like Acedia said, whining/complaining is not constructive criticism. Please don’t get the two mixed up. Thanks.
Chobbs
Acedia +8
Quote: At the risk of not presenting a “cogent arguement” [sic], I will say that personally (speaking for me, not for any other immortal/the immortal staff), when folks whine, I am quite disinclined to answer. I watched as mug spammed increasingly vulgar pages to the immortals, threatening to continue to do so unless he got his 10 drachma. I myself had just gotten back from work, and didn’t even know drachma was even handed out. Since I didn’t know what was going on, and based on the tone, had no interest in getting involved, I must be an evil imm
I apologize for being increasingly vulgar as you said but I was pretty mad.
i was there for kill, i kept 5 attacks up at 24 hand damage,I tossed guards
in other words i did my freaking part and did not see why i could not get my drachma or even a response. I was a good follower and turned off autoloot like asked and just cause i lagged on leader recalling after looting drachma i missed split WTF. If i would have looted recalled w/o group and stole drachma You immorts would have probably took the drachma away from me, deleveled me, and made sure all in group got there drachma. that is bs I WAS there I HELPED KILL.
and for the record {I watched as mug spammed increasingly} i spammed 3 pages to the immorts total iirc
I was pissed when I wrote this and the truth of the matter is I should have wrote it but never hit send button and I realize I was stupid for doing it and I apologize. In that note, I would like to ask that this subject be deleted and If no one can delete it I would ask that it be ignored and not posted to anymore. I am starting up a new thread called changes that have been made that we love and trust me the list is HUGE
please post there and let the immorts know what they do isn’t in vain and that we can post more than just negative
HUGS
Shyla the every will be whiner
Acedia +9
Thread Locked.
And fwiw I miss so much drachma doing behind the scenes stuff you wouldn’t believe it
// Q