There was some very brief gossiping last night regarding rebirth, and since I am going through that stage at the moment I thought to collectivize my thoughts a bit more formally about the matter here, as it’s a better place to have the discussion that needs to happen.
Firstly a couple of quick points about rebirthing for those who haven’t…
It’s really fun, seriously the last few weeks have been great. It’s like a victory lap after winning a running race.
You’ll need to vault your elite eq, so you’ll need 100-175 vault slots BEFORE you rebirth. (PS You can’t buy vaults before level 8 for a reason I don’t understand.)
A smart person would prepare newbie eqsets, quest items before rebirth.
The typical slow down still occurs at 6x40, and coins will become an issue. I am currently 120m coins down from when I started rebirth.
You can level extremely fast… I’m not even 3 weeks into rebirth (real time) and I am already 40w 40o 40m 40c 40d 40n 24t 20b 20a
Keeping half the stuff you gained at avatar shop is an advantage, but won’t make much difference. Objectively speaking, it’s better to rebirth earlier rather than later.
You will rank gain 3x faster at rebirth, but at my level that’s still 500 big epics for crappy reward. Epic reward shouldn’t objectively factor in anyone’s decision making. The chance at gems, gold, xp and character improvement in the epic system are worse than any other system in the game once the first ranks are past. Even running xerxes/klklklpa back to back in fast repop can only just keep up with a good group which will also get more gold and gems because you kill more mobs.
So here is some of the chatter from last night…
‘i think rebirth level 2 should be 2x as hard as normal. gorka is levelling too fast.’
Although this was a joke comment, to make rebirth 2 twice as hard raises the question of would there be enough reward for players to even do that. It appears that my rebirth bonus was a single ac point -0.1… of which I already had 140 of before I rebirthed…
’the way some of the bonuses are set up, in theory you can cap you class bonus since the
code is (rebirth_level * bonus)'
So this comment raises the point that perhaps we could rebirth more than once.
‘rebirth was supposed to be a way for someone to keep their name and restart. ‘anything extra should be considered a bonus..’
And this comment states the original purpose of rebirth, but it’s not how I want to see it.
So I can’t speak for other people who have rebirthed… but for me it was more drachma to buy more items and the replay experience. Sure there is also a rebirth bonus and 3x honor, but these are objectively incredibly silly reasons to rebirth.
My biggest concern is that when I rebirth 9x40 the game is over. I note that the other people who are already 9x40 rebirths don’t play there chars much and are playing remorts or other chars. I have already purchased everything in avatar shop so at 9x40, I will have exactly ZERO use for XP. For a second reiteration of rebirth I would have almost ZERO use for DRACHMA. So the point for me regarding reiterations is… why? What’s in it for me other than replay value.
Which raises the question what should be the purpose of rebirth… to which my answer is, to incrementally get more stronger. But at the moment that path ends at rebirth 9x40… so what happens next… do I just say I finished sloth and walk away from the game, zero use for drachma or xp? If this is what is true, so be it. However what I really want to see is a rebirth shop, much like avatar shop where I can work to further get my character to some caps that are currently impossible… whether that be purchases through xp or drachma.
One last point, the idea behind making the game more challenging for rebirths… I don’t agree that increasing the size of xp for levels for subsequent rebirths achieves that, all that does is make the game more boring than it already is. The challenges of the game ended the first time you reach 9x40… rebirth is like a victory lap. I enjoy playing the game because I desire to maximise my character to it’s ultimate form, not to simply continually replay it in 2 months flat. If I loose the ability to improve, I loose the desire to play my character. With that said, clearly there is a social reason to play sloth, and I think I would continue with that occasionally. I don’t have plans to make a new character, a bard, or a remort and I don’t want to. I want to play Gorka and I want progression.
If it’s decided that the road to progression won’t be improved, then that’s the decision, that’s fine… but inevitably I’ll fade away, and I don’t really want that.
Agree with everything about the motivation to play after the current top
Thanks for the tips about rebirthing. I was expecting 40 slots, not 170, for elite eq, but you are right - low levels dont need to hog 250 items.
Your point about progression brings us back to the idea of repeat rebirths.
This was discussed 2nd thing after Josiah rebirthed.
I suggested giving bonus bonus stats to rebirthers, because some stats are already capped with eq+av shop, and bonus bonus stats are truly cumulative - ie, if a mage wants to rebirth 10 times by spending about a year and 3500mil gold, then he should get the appropriate rewards.
Fluffy also suggested picking from an alloted number of points among skills and stats.
Not to mention, I suggested adding more stats to the pick list for av light.
As for challenges, I think that we need not just challenges for rebirthers, but for 9x40 players:
new areas that’d be worth it or dangerous to solo for them, R’Lyeh on steroids
increase 9x40 exp caps: as mobs get tougher, exp per kill will increase, they need to get all of it.
Simply increasing exp cap would broaden the range of existing mobs 9x40 can go and kill for exp
- add group gold areas that’d mimic gold/hr of existing areas for 9x40s: about 1.5mil/hr/member w/o fastrepop, though some avatars might argue this number is a bit low.
Just look at various MMORPGs, what do they do for their aging players? Do they add new areas and leave them as is, or they tweak mobs in private testing, public testing and in production, continuously? For WoW, that’s the latter.
While Sloth doesn’t have the dev team WoW has, a list of awesome things to do can still be made.
What would be good are concrete suggestions for interesting ways of progressing our characters without making them so powerful that it ruins the game for everyone else. Here’s one idea:
At rebirth 9x40, gain access to crafts.
Each craft has 5 levels associated with it, items impacted by crafting become personal.
Possible trades:
Gemologist - can fuse gems together (personal) to grant items new abilities (increased crit %, lifesteal on crits, poison on crits, psychic scream proc on crits that causes mob to lose an attack for two rounds).
Weaponsmith - can add advanced enchantments on weapons (lifesteal proc, damnation proc, hardening proc that reduces chances of choppers breaking by 95%, elemental damage proc, blind proc)
Guildmaster - can level up other players in your prime class, you get a % of the gold based on guildmaster level, remainder goes to the gods, can teach skills in your prime class and gain practice points like spells currently can.
Classmaster - gain access to skills/spells of your secondary class as if it were your prime, but effects of spells/skills reduced a bit relative to true prime.
Could level up all four crafts independently. Obviously the xp/gold required to gain access to crafts would be Very Big (as Zuzu would say).
Alright, that’d make 1 rebirth worth it. What about 2, 5 or 10?
Making avatars powerful without giving them enough areas to solo/group in does seem like it’d ruin the game for everyone else, but cumulative bonuses or extra prime skills on their own aren’t the cause of those ruins - they are reasons players might want to rebirth repeatedly.
I totally side with a notion that one wishes to play one character - it creates a situation, where remorts just don’t cut it.
Also, please clarify exactly how cumulative bonuses ruin the game for everyone else, so I could suggest precise solutions not to ruin the game.
Not to take away from ideas for rebirth… but I just want to point out… if you can’t spend your xp points on improvements… which would be the case at rebirth 9x40 at the moment, whats the point in playing? We need some way to spend our xp, I think we need a rebirth shop, based on the avatar shop concept at a bare minimum first.
That might work well, if that’s how you get your cumulative bonuses, wouldn’t it?
I don’t disagree with the rebirth shop idea. I do know Breeze has said repeatedly that he won’t be the one doing it, but that he would open to it if someone else did it. Taron/Gorka, you guys are two of the most knowledgeable mortals we have, so providing a fleshed-out list on what could be in the shop might prove helpful.
Yes, so let me state the obvious so that we’re all on the same page. Let’s say we allowed mortals to become so powerful that they could easily solo group mobs. Given enough time and enough people getting there, the entire sloth economy would collapse because items would be easy to get. The biggest part of sloth that is awesome (to most people) is that elite EQ is legitimately hard to get and it legitimately matters whether you have it or not. Just as an example, as a monk, I have spent a year building my solo set and I’m still not done yet. Not going into too much detail, my solo runs last over an hour (without regenning) and net me great xp, and that is just plain fun. It’s also extremely rewarding knowing that I worked my ass off to get to this point. If all of my current EQ had been available to me (easily) at 3x40, I would have been 8x40 in about a month and the game would not provide nearly the same amount of satisfaction that it does.
Now I realize that 9x40’s can already solo group mobs, but that’s limited to a select few with extreme skill and patience. Those same few also have enough respect for the game not to flood the market with cheap EQ that would end up ruining the game for everyone else. If we allow all players to get to that point where it doesn’t require extreme skill/patience, then the game is done. So whatever we add, we have to do it within the current confines of the game.
To me, that means we need to get creative and add cool stuff instead of powerful stuff, hence my suggestion.
Would be nice to start with adding every non point based buffs to avatar shop for example.
And maybe adding bonus bonus stats. Bonus heal/spell bonus etc.
Actually anything that gives us progression. Since Gorka is totally correct - if you want players to stay, you gives them way to improve their chars.
Driven wrote: To me, that means we need to get creative and add cool stuff instead of powerful stuff, hence
my suggestion.
Driven, it starts and end at the point as there are no active enough immortals to code such “cool” stuff. While adding extra bonuses to avatar shop seems simple enough. So you could offer any geniuos ideas how to make it cool, but noone will do it, even if agree its cool.
So decision should be easy enough to do it with current staff. Or as usual “do it by yourself”. Though i tried that way and got almost ignored, but still :)
tldr; Driven exaggerates the impact of 9x40s and the importance of suffering to get eq.
Driven, what makes you think 9x40s can’t solo huge mobs right now, given enough time, patience and corpses?
Also, cumulative bonuses I linked to aren’t overpowering. To truly gain power, one would have to rebirth 10-20 times, which isn’t an option for a sane avatar.
And yet again I point to the issue that there can be more 8x40-9x40 eq. Some rebirth only eq - and that can load in new 9x40 areas.
I don’t think Tiamat, Iblis or zeridan leader will be noticeably easier to kill, if you get +50 bonus spell bonus, -0.5ac, +10mr or +5dam.
Now you are saying that 9x40s would solo high-end gear mobs for fun. Maybe. But casual players would still have to farm tons of gold for that gear, because 9x40’s time is money: they get millions gold per day, compared to under 1mil/hr for 4x40.
Also, you may appreciate how hard it is to get gear, but some might think that it’s too hard. Notice how half people leave at 4-6x40? For them leveling more is hard.
I agree with you 9x40’s can solo anything with enough skill, patience, and time, and I even said as much. You make a good point that massive mobs don’t suddenly become easier to kill because of incremental power improvements. I like your suggestion of the cumulative bonuses, though Gorka has demonstrated that getting back to 9x40 is pretty easy. What was once thought to take 9 months is now looking like 4-6 months. I think the cumulative bonuses would need to cap at some point.
I think we need to bring it in and find the things we can agree on. I don’t want my push for a rebirth shop to be lost in a crap fest, not trying to stop the debate - just want to make sure we stay on track. To date every rebirth thread has gotten no where… because of dumb ideas, people being demanding and disunity… How long is it going to take for us to learn?
The discussion about player power needs a reality check…so does the point about me being intelligent about the game, because what I’ve learned is mostly from current players. Could name you 5 players that know a heck more than me in 5 seconds. The truth is, the real player power is not hit/dam… it’s game play techniques and knowledge. With this knowledge every mob was already solo from 3x40 onwards. Name me a mob you can’t solo with a nightmare? +1 dam is +1hp more damage per attack, maybe +5 dam to strike and +10 to grip… but mobs have hundreds of hitpoints, so it would take cumulative bonuses to even finish a fight a whole round shorter. Ruining the game is not going to happen, because at any point the shop can just be nerfed… and the KVP points in the player files fixed… and for the record, MUD’s are dying and most of our “new” players are old players. I don’t plan to flood the market with cheap eq and most elite eq takes time and drachma anyway, and I’m lazy.
My proposal is basically a re-mirroring of avatar shop… Same stats for sale, +1 MAX STAT, +BONUS points to marginally increase some caps (maybe even your xp cap), maybe some different perm spells, include the 4 saves. Prices to start at double the old prices using “the exciting” ratio of diminishing returns which has already been discussed several times by Prof Zuzu. Each time a point is purchased the next point is more expensive. Boom, done! No need to over complicate it. Avatar shop is already written, KVP stats points is already written. If we could just get on the same page a bit more, instead of discussing new skills which take a lot of time to write and balance, it probably would have already been done.
Furthermore xp doesn’t just need to be spent on player power… it could be spent on other things… like improving my vaults, more regen, continent portals, these kind of ideas. Although I am always going to push rebirth shop primarily, I’m open to other ideas, but I strongly suggest we work together on getting the shop done.
I agree. Even removing current shop caps with progressive cost would be good.
Add all other stats there and some buffs and we have something to do for a lot of time.
And if costs will be progressive, it will not ends with raising strictly one stat.
So something along these lines?
Armor -.1 per, xp cost of 50B + 50B/point, 30M gold
Damroll 1 per, xp cost of 50B + 50B/point, 50M gold
Hitroll 1 per, xp cost of 50B + 25B/point, 30M gold
Hit Points 1 per, xp cost of 20B + 10B/point, 3M gold
Mana 1 per, xp cost of 20B + 10B/point, 3M gold
Moves 1 per, xp cost of 20B + 10B/point, 3M gold
So basically armor would cost 100B xp for first .1, then 150B xp for second .1, then 200B xp for third .1, and so on and so on…?
No, it’s an exponential series… For example: n = (n-1) * 1.25
1: 50b
2: 62.5b
3: 78.125b
4: 97.65625b
5: 122.0703125b
6: 152.5878906b
7: 190.7348633b
8: 238.4185791b
9: 298.0232239b
10: 372.5290298b
For every 1B xp things should cost 1M coins, however with rebirth - to be fair should be 2B xp = 1M coins because rebirths got double xp and no extra coins, and coins are suckage.
Here is a hypothetical rebirth shop… it needs a lot more work. I’ll edit as people make suggestions and criticisms.
Rebirth Shop
*** Primary Stats (cumulative) ************************************************************** 2.5 * Current
+1 max_intelligence - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 max_strength - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 max_wisdom - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 max_dexterity - 125,000,000,000 experience and 62,500,000 coins
+1 max_constitution - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
*** Secondary Stats (cumulative) ************************************************************ 2 * Current
-0.1 ac - 60,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 30,000,000 coins (n10 = 447b)
+1 damroll - 40,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 20,000,000 coins (n10 = 298b)
+1 hitroll - 30,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 15000,000 coins (n10 = 223b)
+1 hitpoints - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.1) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 4.72b)
+1 mana - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.1) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 4.72b)
+1 moves - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.1) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 4.72b)
+1 spell saves (0 of 5) - x experience and x coins
+1 breath saves (0 of 5)- x experience and x coins
+1 petri saves (0 of 5) - x experience and x coins
+1 para saves (0 of 5) - x experience and x coins
+1 ma regen (0 of 10) - y experience and y coins
+1 hp regen (0 of 10) - y experience and y coins
+1 mv regen (0 of 10) - y experience and y coins
*** Permanent Skills (cumulative) *********************************************************** 2 * Current
+1 bonus weapon damage - 20,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 10,000,000 coins (n10 = 149b)
+1 bonus undead control - 16,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 8,000,000 coins (n10 = 119b)
+1 bonus hand damage - 16,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 8,000,000 coins (n10 = 119b)
+1 bonus damage reduction - 10,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 5,000,000 coins (n10 = 74.5b)
+1 bonus stab damage - 8,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 4,000,000 coins (n10 = 59.6b)
+1 bonus heal bonus - 6,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 3,000,000 coins (n10 = 44.7b)
+1 bonus spell damage - 6,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 3,000,000 coins (n10 = 44.7b)
+1 bonus charisma - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 14.9b)
*** Permanent Spells & Skills ***************************************************************
Visage - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Greater Fluidity - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Dark Cloak - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Improved Haste - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Natures Restoral - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Water Breathing - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Petrified Armor - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Resist Webs - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Avatar Blessing - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
I’ve based my numbers on the original avatar shop prices. I don’t agree with some of the avatar shop prices because they don’t make logical sense… for example, 62 mana buys a restoration which is 250hp+… so clearly mana is 4x more valuable than buying hp’s… (there are many other questionable prices, MAX DEX vs AC, Stab Dam etc) but prices aren’t for us to decide. I want people to buy into and agree to these ideas, and I’m confident Teker would implement it if given the all clear. We can argue ratio’s and prices but clearly this is up to the imms, so we need to know when to back off. Already Breeze has had enough of our crap… and that’s sad, because I find him quite reasonable, and clearly the players are at fault here if he got ticked off.
Seems cool. I agree, that ratios invalid. Some are very invalid. But overall idea seems shiny.
And maybe progression should be set in such way from zero values not for reborns only, but for usual shop as well. But coefficents should be tied to current average total values for the stat.
Like 100 mana is 100 bils atm. So M1+M2+..+M100 = 100 bil in new formula. First poinst will be quite cheap probably, but later if will be fixed up. I dont have time atm to count precise coefs values, will do it later.
Would think making the bonus cost drac… since you get drac from each rebirth.. would make sense.. maybe a balance or exchange of coins exp and drac?
In back conversations, even with Breeze and Teker, I’ve mentioned the idea of buying stat points with drachma. I mostly like the idea but have two concerns…
Inevitably if you can gain something by two methods (xp OR drachma), one way usually works out easiest, and people tend to do whats easiest, so I suspect the so called “choice” in an economic sense will probably end up being illusionary anyway. I accumulated about 1830 drachma in a very short time after rebirth. I probably spent about 8 hours on it… 1830 is a lot, 8hrs of xp is nothing… it’s really difficult to equate the 2 currencies and I see risks in doing so.
I prefer to make my own choices about how I do things… ie, I don’t want to be compelled to use my drachma for such a thing, when I wanted to instead spend it on items in the drachma eq shop.
If multiple rebirths become a thing… and that is totally going to depend on the reward factors for doing so, eventually no one will have a use for drachma at some point. It’s inevitable that sometime in the future by making rebirths a thing (and look I love the idea! thanks!) there is going to be collisions over the inadequacy of the drachma shops unless an outlet to spend drachma is found.
So what I am saying is this, don’t compel players to spend drachma in some way… and secondly the conversation about this is perhaps more complex than we imagined.
Furthermore, if the proposed rebirth shop was implemented, it would be easier to purchase bonuses rather than rebirth for them, making the rebirth feature just for those who want the replay experience, which was the initial intention.
Alright, let’s focus on the shop.
I like the idea of:
a rebirth shop
cumulative pricing in the shop (I even suggested it once)
an updated avatar shop w/o rebirth (for when one doesn’t need drachma).
But I think the coefficient needs to be lower. 140bil for the 10th weap dam seems excessive - that’s 2 weeks of hardcore exp grouping, usually 3-4 weeks. If I need 800bil to get 50hps, that’ll hardly be enticing to pursue. I’d like to buy 300-500hps before running into the amount of exp I can’t reasonably obtain for 10hps to be worth it (10bil per 1hp, for example), but War or Arya might move 100-200hp further.
In the Imperial III MUD they had cumulatice pricing since level 1: you had to spend exp on stats and you gained levels from exp spent. The coefficient was much lower and it allowed for more nuanced picking of standard stats and longer progression (ie, the players could make minimal progress fast enough to keep the interest in the game). It also allowed players to build neat focused builds (ie, tanks, healers, damage dealers).
I agree that pricing on bonus stats and max stats needs to be somewhat high, but not high enough to immotivate players to buy them. Cost of hp/mana/hps could be lower to allow small dumps of exp/gold for minimal progress.
P.S. I can name 5 knowledgeable players in 10 seconds :p
P.P.S. If you have undead visage in the shop, add Glamour to it, because it can’t be cast with visage on.
I like the idea of an exponentially expensive avatar shop rather than the existing caps.
Unlimited progression is very appealing, ease of implementation is ideal, and messing with the exponential multiplier can keep it from spiraling out of control.
As for multiple rebirths, I think only access to the prime skills of secondary classes would be appealing enough to tempt most players to do such a thing.
Any immortal wanna comment idea of improving avatar shop with new bonuses and infinite expotential purchases?
So what is the actual proposal I should be looking at? The rebirth shop post from 5/23? Or an extension to the avatar shop? Or both?
Starting with my post on the 23rd is a good starting point. I didn’t try very hard with the metrics, because it’s not my job or place to set the value or amount of things. However if you want advice from me or other players on what constitutes fair pricing, I’d think about it more seriously and get back to you.
I think rebirth shop should be separate for rebirths only.
There is an argument to improve avatar shop as well… why the regens and saves are not in the original avatar shop, is perhaps an over site, but just my opinion. There are more perm spells that perhaps be in the rebirth shop as well… if that was actually on the table. I didn’t list them all.
Thanks for taking a look at this too Teker, the rebirths will be very happy.
teker wrote: So what is the actual proposal I should be looking at? The rebirth shop post from 5/23? Or an extension to the avatar shop? Or both?
First of all, question is will be that improvement allowed by immortal council. If so, we could start working on exact rates and values
If speaking about improvements, i agree with Gorka. Its too separate things. One is adding missing stats and spells to current avatar shop. Second is adding another shop with exactly same stats in it, but with expotential exp and gold cost.
you guys come up with the concept/proposal.
exact details / formulas.
we (the immortals) will discuss it/adjust it/approve/disapprove/nerf/whatever
it requires.
i don’t want Teker to work blindly for hours on something
that we may have to say no to. i know all too well
how that feels.
part of the discussion will be if Teker even wants to tackle doing the changes.
Also,
there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.
everything in there was decided on by Splork back
when i redid the shop as a level 43 immortal.
he said that’s what he wanted there, so that’s
what I added there.
Quote: we (the immortals) will discuss it/adjust it/approve/disapprove/nerf/whatever
it requires.
Thats the first question. Do you agree about the idea of infinite expotential avatar shop at all. Rates are subject to discuss, but it will take long probably and before doing that, its good to know, if overall idea is acceptable. Mostly there gonna be exactly the same stats as in current shop, plus bonus bonus stats (bonus spell dam, bonus heal, bonus hand dam etc).
Quote: Also,
there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.
everything in there was decided on by Splork back
when i redid the shop as a level 43 immortal.
he said that’s what he wanted there, so that’s
what I added there.
Some things might change over time. There are few missing stats there, like saves or ma/hp/mvregen.
Only Splork can say why he decided not to include them there.
And some spells could be added without breaking balance. Like fluidity, petrification armor, resist webs. Maybe 1-2 another.
Quote: Thats the first question. Do you agree about the idea of infinite expotential avatar shop at all. Rates are subject to discuss, but it will take long probably and before doing that, its good to know, if overall idea is acceptable. Mostly there gonna be exactly the same stats as in current shop, plus bonus bonus stats (bonus spell dam, bonus heal, bonus hand dam etc).
- exponential —-^^^^^^^
i guarantee that if we were to make something like that,
we would have to come up with something for mobs too.
atm i am open to not just nixing the idea without hearing
about it.
Quote: Some things might change over time. There are few missing stats there, like saves or ma/hp/mvregen.
Only Splork can say why he decided not to include them there.
And some spells could be added without breaking balance. Like fluidity, petrification armor, resist webs. Maybe 1-2 another.
one thing that will probably never go in is Avatar Shadow (perma sanc + perma dark cloak)
so perma dark cloak is out…
havent really thought about the other perma_stuff we could add and how it would affect anything.
Ok here is my Rebirth Shop proposal. Any PLAYER who decides to criticise my proposal WITHOUT providing their own proposal of equal objectivity and thinking… prepare for flame wars! I suspect that only Taron and Fluffy are capable of providing worthwhile comment if past experience is anything to go by. My post took several hours of careful calculations… and my facts don’t care about your feelings. As my science teacher used to say “Be remembered as a builder, not a breaker.” With that said… lets begin.
I notice that Avatar shop concerned itself mostly with class related attributes. Hence it’s my opinion that Rebirth shop should therefore concern itself more with Avatar attributes.
A rule of thumb for rebirths is that 2b xp gains about 1m coins, hence I will use this to price my coin components.
In general I believe that the prices in rebirth shop should equate to about 2.5 times that of avatar shop in comparison, as we currently get double xp, with .5 to justify our increased power.
The following suggestion is based very very strongly on objective logic, based on current avatar shop prices being accepted as “objective truth.”
In the end I have capped all my purchases, and not allowed for infinite improvement, as I think the idea is too controversial to be accepted. However ratio pricing could still could be applied until the cap is reached, but in a more marginal rate at something like 1.05.
I think we should be able to purchase +1 MAX Stat more… priced at 2.5 times the price of the current avatar shop.
+1 of 1 MAX_INT - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_STR - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_WIS - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_DEX - 125,000,000,000 experience and 62,500,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_CON - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
I think the next section is too controversial to allow infinite progression in. For example +1 Dam is worth 10x more to a thief than other classes. Hence I think a repeat of the avatar shop scheme is appropriate, because this section is most likely to create the problems. However we could apply ratio pricing just as a twist to things… starting at 2.5 times the avatar shop cost.
+1 of 3 HIT - 37,500,000,000 experience and 18,750,000 coins
+1 of 3 DAM - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 3 AC - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Brought into line as being a proportion of the MAX_DEX cost, an error in avatar shop)
+1 of 100 HIT - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 100 MANA - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 100 MOVES - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
This section effects the regeneration speed of players and therefore speeds up the pace the game is played. I would like to see a 10% increase in regeneration rates for rebirths. The slowest regenning classo at avatar can still obtain 120ma regen… and 10% of that is about 10+ ma regen. Movement regen is similar, and hp regen almost doesn’t even factor due to contemplation being as high as 400 hp per min. Hence I feel the economic viability of purchasing regen should end at about the 10% mark. Given avatar shop provided aegis for 50b xp, which is a saving to the player of 40 mana over 420secs, we can calcuate that this was a saving of the equivalent of 5.714 ma regen to the player. So it appears the game prices ma regen at approximately 10b per point for non-rebirths. So I have applied my 2.5 factor to arrive at the following prices. Given mana can be used to obtain moves and hp via refresh and restore, we can use the mana price to calculate the move and hp price. We could also apply a ratio here to make things get incrementally more expensive.
+1 of 10 MA Regen - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins
+3 of 30 MV Regen - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Refresh is 20 ma for 50mvs = 2.5x)
+4 of 40 HP Regen - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Restore is 62 ma for 250hp = 4.0x)
This section in my opinion is the best place to offer ratio pricing. For this section you need to break down how often the attribute is used… for example, weapon damage is used for each attack in a round of a fight (generally 5 attacks) however flail can only occur once per round. Hence weapon damage should be priced at 5x. So I applied a ratio to damages… Given weapon damage was priced at 10b in the avatar shop, and I want to apply my 2.5 ratio to the price… I can break it down and solve for X. X is also given to passive attributes based on how often they are used.
+1 of 25 BONUS_CIRCLE_DAMAGE (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_FLAIL DAMAGE (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_HAND DAMAGE (5x) - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_KICK DAMAGE (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_SPELL BONUS (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_STAB DAMAGE (.5x) - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_WEAPON DAMAGE (5x) - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_CHARISMA (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_DAMAGE_REDUCTION (5x) - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Works out at the same cost as AC, as it should)
+1 of 25 BONUS_HEAL BONUS (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_SYS SHOCK (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_UNDEAD CONTROL (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
This is a new section and is therefore on unknown ground. However calculations in the past showed me that 1 Spell Save was about the equivolent of 5 Spell Bonus. However according to the above chart this would make a Spell Save worth 25b which seems excessive… (Avatar shop had an excessive price for spell dam in the first place in my opinion) but okay, lets run with that. The other prices are scaled based on their importance to spell saves. In my opinion these prices, although based on logic… they should be cheaper.
+1 of 5 SAVES BREATH 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES PARALYZATION 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES PETRIFICATION 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES POISON 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES SPELL 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins
Given that most of the avatar shop spells were class spells, I believe rebirth shop spells should be avatar spells… Following the logic of Breeze’s claim that the avatar shop was “complete” in the sense that everything that was going to be permitted was permitted… I haven’t included water breathing or visage which I know would be popular. There is a case for adding the other resists that are available as well such as resist_acid and resist_electricity. The price for perm spells should be based on mana regen costs… for example, perm greater fludity saves 42 mana over 946 seconds, hence greater fludity is really the equivelent price of 2.6638 ma regen. Now this calculation is a silly notion… however it does objectively create a scale system to work out fair costs of perm spells relational to each other. If we price 1 ma regen at approximately 25b xp we can calculate fair approximate costs for perm spells.
greater fluidity 42 mana over 946sec = 2.6638 ma regen = 65b experience and 32,500,000 coins
resist webs 22 mana over 1015secs = 1.300 ma regen = 32.5b experience and 16,250,000 coins
mobility 15 mana over 2720secs = 0.330 ma regen = 8.5b experience and 4,250,000 coins
*grace 7 mana over 1536secs = 0.273 ma regen = 7b experience and 3,500,000 coins
rejuvenation 25 mana over 1812secs = 0.496 ma regen = 12.5b experience and 6,250,000 coins
petrified armor 20 mana over 1500secs = 0.800 ma regen = 20b experience and 10,000,000 coins
blessing of the avatar 45 mana over 3630secs = 0.743 ma regen = 18.5b experience and 9,250,000 coins
natures restoral 45 mana over 2020secs = 1.336 ma regen = 33b experience and 11,000,000 coins
improved haste 40 mana over 480secs = 5 ma regen = 125b experience and 62,500,000 coins
*Grace poses a problem as the spell it’s self is the equivelent of 130b/65m if bought individually as saves. Grace is an incredibly worthwhile spell, and perhaps it’s price should be set somewhere manually at the price of about 50m.
I dont think capping stats is good idea.
In that case it will be just a delay. Not even long one.
And then problem comes again.
Instead, expotential formula is some kind of limit by itself.
I think your starting values for each stat arent bad. We could use them
And cost for each level should be L(n) = L(1) * q^(n-1)
Where
L(n) is value for Nth level of stat
L(1) starting value of that stat
q - coefficient of raise
N - level for which we counting
Its not gonna be exactly the same speed for every stat, but offers some approximate correlation over distance and total exp spent for every stat.
I assume that
1 dam = 2 hand dam = 10 spell bonus = 20hp/ma
50b = 50b = 50b = 50b
So while dam end on 30, hand dam on 60, spellbonus end on 300, hp/ma on 600
All other stats has same values as any of those, so could be count with same coefs.
Examples of every starting value we have (2.5b, 5b, 25b, 37.5, 50b)
Dam(50 bils starting, 1.47 coef).
1 50
2 73.5
3 108
4 158
5 233
6 343
7 504
8 741
9 1090
10 1602 Total sum 4 906
20 75509 Total sum 236 060
Hand dam (25b starting, 1.2 coef)
1 25
2 30
5 51.84
10 128.99
20 798 Sum 4 667
40 30620 Sum 183 596
Spell Bonus (5bils starting, 1.037 coef)
1 5
2 5.18
10 6.93
50 29.66
100 182 Sum 4 977
200 6901 Sum 193 292
Mana/hp/mv (2.5b starting, 1.018 coef)
1 2.5
10 2.94
50 5.99
200 87.05 Sum 4 784
400 3085 Sum 174 354
Hit (37.5 starting, 1.47 coef)
1 37.5
10 1201 Sum 3 679
20 56631 Sum 177 045
Max stats are limited to purchase, so even could be set manually to equals progression above. Or get some coef for it.
With that numbers. Assuming some rebirth avatar doing exp with average 1b/h rates.
He will need 1 432 bils to get 10 extra dam. Thats 1432 hours. If he exping 8h/day, he will need 179 days to get those.
And for 20 dam that will be 14545 hours - 1818 days - 5 years.
And thats only for raising one stat. I doubt anybody will get that much of any stat tbh.
But there is potential to do it anyway.
I understand, that exp rate will raise over time, but not that much, since we still have the cap.
Exp cap probably should be raising as well overtime. For example by 1mil for each 200-300bils spent on that shop. Maybe another multiplier, but that seems good enough.
*****05/06 update
I raised coefs to the average 2 years of intensive play to reach 10/100/200 marks of each stat
I don’t disagree with Fluffy’s proposal, because it starts with the same starting points as my own ideas and then just leaves them open ended. The reason I decided against this idea was that I just couldn’t see Breeze buying it. 432b xp is roughly the xp required for 9x40 rebirth… which I can get in 2 months. (Not sure I’ll play this intense again though) Not sure the imms want to add more than +10dam to my stab. But if they want to… I mean, I’m down with that… :)
I think the issue you have with open caps, is the players themselves. For some players 432b is a limiting cap, and for other players, it’s not. So the issue is, perhaps some hardcore players need holding back and therefore we need caps.
Nods. After sleeping i also think half of the year non stop playing is too quick for 10 dam. I suggest Breeze gives us brief limit, in which time period he thinks 10 dam should be allowed to be gained (year, 2 years, 5 years etc). And i will recalcalute all coefs accordingly.
From my point of view, 10 dam(or any other equivalent) is rewarding enough for 2 years of very intensive playing. Updated previous post accordingly. Even doubt anybody ever will be able to reach 20 dam mark
And about the question of
Quote: i guarantee that if we were to make something like that,
we would have to come up with something for mobs too
Thats not an issue imo. We have plenty of high level areas that literally never being run. Some of them could adjusted to be good 9x40 rebirth players exp area. And/or adding more of such areas. And actually, high power player would just run tougher areas, since they will need more exp
Let me argue against myself for a second… I don’t think +10 dam is much for non thieves, I’m not even sure it’s much for thieves… We can already test… use a +6 damage potion, a dam fortune and a prime bard to obtain +10dam to try it out… we do this in groups occasionally… are people going to be splorking large mobs? I really doubt it.
If you remove CK and Necrop from the game, it’s actually hard to kill mobs over 5m in this game without extending regen. I doubt with +10 dam even that situation would change.
I fear even with the power increases proposed… I will still be running shadow keep for xp, because we still can’t break past that 5m barrier easily… an area I’ve been running since 3x40. Is +10 dam a lot? Part of me says yes, yet part of me says, it won’t even take me out of the area’s I run into a new 5-10m level. There is another question that comes into play among all this talk, and that is the players are changing but the mobs aren’t.
- I partially agree with logic and pricing of Gorka’s shop.
Though there needs to be 1 of 5 bonus charisma, not 1 of 25 - I suppose it’s an oversight, because bards cap at 29 charisma or so - do you want to nearly double their charisma in 1 rebirth? The throngs of bard primes 9x40 we have is not the question, it’s the principle.
I’d still prefer being able to accumulate stats as I invest time in exp/gold, ie, buy rebirth shop, rebirth, it’s reset, buy 5-25 of everything again, but..
What I’d totally accept is accurate pricing of logarithmical pricing Fluffy suggested.
The problem here are the coefficients - the 1600bil for 10th dam is nothing to sneeze at, even for rebirths. At that point the price does seem reasonable.
I’d expect to get more hps per rebirth, for example, not 200, but perhaps 300.
- Extra damage isn’t noticeable in stabs, because stab damage is capped for solo around 600 for non-primes and about 1200 for groups?
If these caps are increased/removed, then it’ll let players use their real power.
As rebirthers gain more power, they’ll need tougher areas to run, that’s a given.
One possible solution is to:
introduce area instances
let rebirthers set difficulty to normal (current), difficult, epic, heroic, mythic, each increasing mob hp/dam by about 20%.
It’d instantly create dozens of areas rebirthers can hit for more exp without bothering each other or small groups (look at any graphic MMORPGs at how playing in dungeons is done, it’s trivial).
In fact, difficulty setting may not be limited to rebirthers - it’d increase the difficulty range for various areas. But it won’t fix broken areas with worthless mobs.
Breeze wrote: there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.
everything in there was decided on by Splork back
when i redid the shop as a level 43 immortal.
he said that’s what he wanted there, so that’s
what I added there.
Players see for themselves, whether they need something from the shop or not and voice their concerns.
What you just said about Splork single-handedly deciding for all players, what the shop should or should not have, demonstrates the attitude that is the core of most issues in the game, because it’s being tailored to his vision without regard to player’s interest and needs - and that leads to the game being less and less interesting to players.
Of course, he probably has a right to say, “I’m building the game to my liking - if people don’t appreciate it, let them go to Aardwolf or MMORPGs or real life”. But is this the vision other immorts share? Is this what players appreciate?
If that’s the case, then immorts should stop focusing on making the game interesting for players by asking what they want, and should make a list of Splork’s interests. It’d be much more efficient - after all he hasn’t publicly played for years, whereas some players have spent only literal years in the game.
Or, immorts should listen to what players want and work together how to make the game more enjoyable for the players, not for Splork.
Splork said that he lets immorts do their thing, except he is involved in most things and whenever he is, whatever new is added is gimped in the end:
the spec rack that hasn’t solved the problem of dozens of specs vanishing from vault floors during reboot/crash,
the group gold areas: he said that players have enough gold and it isn’t an issue, which disregards how mindnumbingly awful gold grinding is or that players might want to group even for gold. After all, the rest of the game is painstakingly geared towards groups,
forbidding adding more mobs to old areas, the approach is to add it once and leave it, while the opposite is better: measuring, analyzing and tweaking areas for player enjoyment within reason.
So, what do you say Breeze, do you insist that nothing else gets added to the avatar light, because Splork once said so?
i wont even bother replying to the most of it since i don’t like sarcasm
however, avatar lights (all items) have only a limited # of affects. which i believe is 4.
i assume you meant avatar shop.
i tried being open and working with you (mortals) about a rebirth shop and i ended up
nixing the idea because of all the drama it started.
i will not be a public part in the discussion of the rebirth shop nor the avatar shop.
i wrote it before, and i will write it here again.
Quote:
If teker wants to work on it, work it out with the active immortals
and they can discuss it with me.
while Splork is the final say,
he rarely (if ever?) overrides me.
spec rack - so what do you want ? 100 slots ? even after rack went in, it stood empty. i am surprised there is stuff in it now. the idea is to give you enough to get started in getting choppers, not remove chopper popping all together.
gold - i would be open to doing ?jonathans? idea of ramping up gold for an area based on a quest or a timer or something
forbidding adding mobs - even if not, who is going to do the work ?
(not mentioned but hey, its my reply)
- prime skills - i honestly dont even care. i would probably say it has to use
(0.5 * skill prime position) of whatever though (mv ma hp)
i don’t get how you guys can run a complicated/long quest like enea food quest or genie bottle,
but still want everything as easy as possible.
Quote: So, what do you say Breeze, do you insist that nothing else gets added to the avatar light, because Splork once said so?
its comments like that that are the reason i wont work on rebirth/avatar shop and in general piss me off.
all i said is that (paraphrased) the avatar shop is as the main/only creator at the time wanted it.
infer whatever you want from that since you will anyways, but that is the type of comment that would make me 100% nix the idea of expanding on the avatar shop. i hate sarcastic replies.
this whole rebirth fiasco is my fault, and i wish i had never done it in the first place.
however, rebirth would probably have worked out better if we were a 4+1 class mud not 8+1.
rest of message deleted because it was pissing me off just proofreading it
25 BONUS_CHARISMA was a typo. Was meant to be 5.
Topic was Rebirth shop, I made a very constrained proposal, a proposal not necessarily what I wanted, but what I thought I could get, based on the framework and history of the game… but if we were to take your advice…
Shop should be uncapped.
Unlimited Rebirths.
Doubling/Tripling current extra level of purchased Ma/Hp/Mv
Caps Increased or Removed.
Bigger Spec Rack.
Different Levels of XP.
3 times as many mobs.
And a bit of an attack on the immortals.
Anything else you’d like? :roll: Be lucky to get anything now… Zero tact… So smart, yet so stupid.
Breeze wrote: the avatar shop is as the main/only creator at the time wanted it
Breeze wrote: there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.
Gorka, In one thread you lament not being able to kill 7mil mobs efficiently, here you slam the idea of higher caps.
Whatever, I’ll refrain from commenting if that’s how it needs to work.
Breeze, just ignore Taron probably.
We were discussing here exact idea, with even some nunbers already. Doesnt matter atm, who will code it, but we need overall agreement about posibility of it and exact details and numbers(though Teker seemed interested a bit in such improvement)
My coefficients were given in assumption, that tier 1 numbers of each stat(ie 10 dam/20 handdam/100 spelldam etc) should be gained in around of 5000 bils of exp. Thats about two years for each stat if playing alot. So doable to get some starting levels of each stat, but making hard to get alot in any, while still giving such posibility for anybody addicted.
So we need some immortal conclusion about exactly that idea, maybe tunning numbers up or down. And after that, we will seek for anybody to do it. But at least with having exact specification.
Taron,
You are so out of touch with what actually happens within the Immortal ranks that in the old days, I would waste my time debating you and pointing out the dozens of inaccuracies in your posts.
Now, I just sit back by my pool, laugh my ass off, and tip my glass to those dealing with your bullshit.
Enjoy,
I wonder what means I have for learning how things are done on the immortal side?
Do you discuss with us every major decision that is made and why it was made in that quantity/quality, not the other?
If my perception is that someone is deliberately trying to keep playing this game painful to the point that only a fraction of players can tolerate it to reach 9x40 or to continue playing well past 9x40, and I’m wrong, then perhaps it should be clarified, no?
If discussing players issues is a laughable matter, then you are just the example of what I’m talking here:
no transparency,
take it or leave it,
“I just sit back by my pool, laugh my ass off, and tip my glass to those dealing with your bullshit.”
My impression is that most of the imms are quite busy with rl and are spending less time in the game (myself included). There haven’t been any large group discussions regarding rebirth or the rebirth shop that I’ve been a part of. I am content to put work into the rebirth shop because it seems that many players have reached the point where they have completed nearly everything in the game and because we’re not seeing many new players join in. I fear that without retaining the current player base we would be even worse off and the game would eventually dwindle and die.
A somewhat similar topic for me is the chopper rack and the seeming discontent among players for the rack and how choppers (and perhaps other items) are persisted across reboots. There have been several threads regarding the topic and the basic arguments seem to be “players deserve to keep things popped through reboots/crashes” and “players should have to work to have a group full of super-choppers wielding players after a reboot”. I can lay out some issues with “solving” the reboot/crash item but for me the bottom line is that I wouldn’t want to persist choppers through reboots unless all items were persisting through reboots, and I don’t have the desire to spend my limited game-time on solving that particular problem (and the problems that arise from this “fix”).
as for transparency, teker has made way
more info available than in the past.
Quote: I am content to put work into the rebirth shop
Cool. So we probably need some other immortals conclusion about offered ideas(mine or Gorka’s). Or even just agreement from high ranks.
In short, there are two parts that we want to be approved.
Few more spells in current avatar shop. Gorka offered the list and it seems fair and balanced to me
Rebirth avatar shop with more stats. Better unlimited(though extremly expensive at high numbers). I offered some exp cost examples
Mmm. Up. I still hope to see some other then Teker imms opinions about the proposal.
Ok, I’ve taken some time (yet again) to look down and read most of what has been transpiring in this
thread which I can’t necessarily say for some of you. (Anything that begins with “tldr” loses all credibility
and value towards consideration). But I’ll start by saying that the following is an off-the-cuff set of thoughts,
ideas, brainstorming, and otherwise conjecture and/or reaction (and does not in anyway warrant, require,
guarantee, or mean anything in particular with regards to things that exist in past, present, or future
reality) But, you guys wanted another immortal’s ideas, so here goes….
As head builder and player, I mainly look at things from a small set of perspectives. As a player, I am limited by my perspective on a current system by my character and style, my aspirations and goals as a player. As a
builder, I get to realize each of those things on a grander scale. Up to this point, I’d say they give me about
the same amount of enjoyment, an amount that has kept me ‘in the game’ for over twenty years. When I’m
not playing, I build. That’s what I do, and that’s what I want to do, and that’s what my focus is on. I don’t
really focus or consider too many things that I a.) don’t have the technical knowledge for, b.) aren’t directly related to what it is that I am working on at the time, c.) I don’t really have too much experience with in a game play sense (because it’s hard to have a good opinion on something if you don’t experience it in some
way), and d.) I just simply got other things in real life to devote my attention to like my job, where my next meal is coming from, am I going to be able to pay rent this month, etc. I’m never going to be a coder nor will I be writing code, however small and infinitesimal the amounts thereof may be. But I can work with the people in the staff and the players to try to use the current system to create some pretty neat things. This is partly why I’ve whipped up some, again “off-the-cuff” ideas that seem, at first glance, to be worth considering for shop ideas and improvements that would go alongside an infinite or multi-rung ladder of progression of sorts. These are:
//Gold Accumulation Bonus
//Skill Percentage Bonus
//Spell Percentage Bonus
//Water Breathing
//Perm Visage
//Access to the prime skills of secondary classes
//Access to the prime skills of tertiary classes
//Raise the caps of secondary and tertiary max_stats
//Mana Regen Bonus
//HP Regen Bonus
//Move Regen Bonus
//Age Reduction
//Weight Percentage Reduction
//Bard Song Effect Perentage (Affects more players at once)
//Bonus Bonus Dam Reduce
//Bonus Bonus Charisma
//Bonus Bonus Spell Bonus
//Bonus Bonus Undead Control
//Bonus Bonus Stab Damage
//Bonus Circle Damage
//Bonus Bonus Heal Bonus
//Bonus Excrutiating Blow Percentage
//Resist Webs
//Bonus Saves (Not Really In Favor of this too much)
//Access to Legacy Concepts
-Fargate Spell
-Legacy Strength Spell
-etc, etc
//Spell Duration Increases
//Skill Duration Increases
//Hunger and Thirst Increments/Decrements (Depending on how you look at it.)
Now, I have no idea how difficult or sweeping at the microscopic level some of these things would be simply
because I’m just not intimate with the code regarding such things. But there are a few things that have been brought up and talked about during this thread that I do have an opinion or alternate ideas to address some of the same concerns up to this point. They are as follows:
- Comparisons to MMORPGs and WOW: We aren’t WOW, We will never be WOW, We don’t aspire
to be like WOW, and we don’t have the funding or resources to create another WOW.
- The Illusion of Time as some Metaphysical Currency. Nobody’s time is sacred. It is not a holy sacrament to be regarded at each level, at all times, to be exalted as christ on the cross, osiris in the tomb, or the phoenix from the ashes. Once you spend time to waste time, you lose all credibility in arguing for time’s sake. Spending time does not guarantee or warrant the use of someone else’s time for your opinions or gains. Now, to that point, however, we do what we do because we love the game and we generally like the people that play the game. As long as the enjoyment is there, so is the game and considerations, and all the gains and merits that come with it. Regardless of momentary arguments and hurt feelings, I’d like to think that we all want this wonderful, fulfilling relationship to endure as much as I would like it to.
Now, let’s move on…
- Revamping Areas: I think it could very well be worth revamping some areas and things to meet the requirements of the current system and players that we have, sure. But I doubt that the players and I will consider the same things altogether. I’d like to see an upscaling of some of the descriptions and presentation of the areas that have been neglected or have been around since the birth such as the Catacombs. To me, that’s part of what I enjoy about building and areas in general; What’s the story here? How did this mob come to be a skeleton? Or how did this mob become a ferryman? That’s all terribly interesting to me. There’s a problem with going around revamping everything outside of descriptions and presentation though, and it’s mostly in the long run. I’ll use an analogy here: Imagine, if you will, you are climbing a ladder that reaches upwards to a point that lies outside your possible field of vision. No matter how high you climb, you can never seem to reach the top or even see it for that matter. You spend so much time raising yourself up the rungs, that you don’t notice that the ground is no longer visible after a certain point. At that moment you realize this, a question pops into your head: Where are you on the ladder? The point here is I, and I would dare say much of the staff, have no desire to scale things so high as to leave the ground out of sight. And by this, I mean to say that giving the world to the top level characters while providing a mere handful of grains of sand for those who aren’t trying to achieve the same things, are content with being low level, are content playing a different way, are casual players who log in just a handful of times a month or year, or otherwise aren’t really worried about becoming more powerful or engaging in things that they don’t already have available to them. Back to the revamping areas, sure, some of them most decidedly need to be addressed, others not so much. It is my most endearing intention to provide wholly new content in context of new areas rather than spend all my time going back through 400 zones and making sure they are up to date with the current state of the game because repackaging the same areas as something new seems not only disingenuous in some way, but runs contrary to my mission to provide new area content. That doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but it’s not really a primary focus.
Let’s move on…
Hardcore Characters: When I worked on another mud, we introduced what we called hardcore characters. They were bigger, meaner, faster, more adept, and more powerful. There was one catch: they only got one life. We found this challenging to see how high of a level we could get. (I think we only got to level 25 at our highest) but like the coliseum, once we reached a new plateau in levels, we found it greatly rewarding. Anyways, I’ve been pondering how something like this might go over here as some of the arguments that have been in this thread have been centered around maintaining the challenge of the game. That, to me, could be quite challenging and, perhaps, even rewarding.
Ad Hominem approaches are unhelpful and unproductive, and do nothing to address anything of value nor does it move any topic of conversation forward.
“Worthless” things. The elements of the game that are deemed “worthless” have become so because we’ve increased so much over the years - the attainable zeniths of spells, skills, requirements, mob caps and capabilities and equipment caps. This is not likely to change in its present course, and speaks volumes in regards to the attempts to maintain a balance across the board and a point I was trying to make in bullet number 3. This brings me to the comments regarding the concept that immorts don’t listen to what players want. That simply isn’t true in such a blanket regard (or disregard depending on how you look at it). For
example, Teker asked what sort of EQ people wanted to see, and he and I have been filtering the EQ creation process alongside of my area building with those taken into account. You can see this in the item that Charybdis loads in the Water Plane Extension. But to imply or suggest that we should dump huge, sweeping changes in all at once isn’t reasonable; that implication runs contrary to a fundamental logic, that logic being one of an Aristotelian nature that says simply that once you begin changing the properties of something, it becomes something else. Now, that’s not to say we aren’t interested in evolving or evolution of the game shouldn’t be expected. But making such huge changes all at once isn’t an evolution, it’s an outright creation of something else.
- Caps. Some things need to be capped like things measured in percentages because you shouldn’t have some things with no element of percentile risk. Spell casting and skill performance is a good example of that. There cannot be a hundred percent guarantee with some basic elements of the game or else there’s no risk and no challenge in that regard. Other things don’t matter such as, say, linear measurements such as hunger and thirst.
Ok, so now that we’re past all of that….
I won’t concern myself too much with any decision process regarding how the costs of each new shop element should be scaled. One, I don’t really care. Two, I’m not as intimately knowledgeable about the shops as some players and staff members. But I’d be interested in hearing some of your thoughts on some of the ideas I’ve presented today as way to support multiple, if not infinite, rebirths and progressions. I’ve taken some of the ideas from you guys and some from my own musings. I haven’t really considered too many repercussions other than the things I’ve already discussed, so there’s that. Also, keep in mind that none of these things are the result of any conversations with other immortals. This means that anything contained within this post is no indication whatsoever that you should or could expect any of the things I’ve addressed. You guys asked for the opinions of other immortal staff members, and, well, here I am.
Also, I wouldn’t take this as the entirety of my/our ideas and plans….
There has to be some mystery, after all :)
-Neptune
Apparently, I mistook Breeze’s description of the avatarshop as a statement that it won’t be changed, because reasons.
I guess, I was wrong.
Other concepts are deeply outside the topic of this thread.
Moving on.
I have to note that perm visage requires an option of perm glamour, because glamour can’t be cast, when visaged, and to restrict bards from perm visage would be unfair.
To continue the list of things that increase linearly and aren’t capped:
damage,
hitroll,
hps/mana/mvs.
Things that are limited:
item limit (perhaps, increase by 20 per rebirth?),
move speed across several types of terrain: grass/stone (think ettins), desert, underwater, etc. (10% speed increase per rebirth, 9 times max),
pet points for necros/clerics,
raise the caps of primary stats, so mages could mem more, and others gain some stats as well.
I do have to note that access to primary skills (even to 1 from another class) would be the most lucrative reason to rebirth, determined by the number of rebirths the characer did.
Neptune wrote: This is partly why I’ve whipped up some, again “off-the-cuff” ideas that seem, at first glance, to be worth considering for shop ideas and improvements that would go alongside an infinite or multi-rung ladder of progression of sorts. These are:
//Gold Accumulation Bonus
//Skill Percentage Bonus
//Spell Percentage Bonus
//Water Breathing
//Perm Visage
….
These are mostly good ideas. Some of them clearly fit into current ideas of avatar shop update and rebirth stats shop.
Some others are really interesting for players, but probably will be cut down by other immortals. Like another classes prime skills, though its perfectly fit into rebirth idea. Maybe with raised exp values for levels(Like {number of rebirth}*{current amount} for each level of any rebirth cycle).
I would heavy appreciate that if eventually we will come to that idea realization.
Few others are working ones, but just not that important for players. Good to have, but nothing to aim for.
Neptune wrote: 3. Revamping Areas: …
The point here is I, and I would dare say much of the staff, have no desire to scale things so high as to leave the ground out of sight.
And by this, I mean to say that giving the world to the top level characters while providing a mere handful of grains of sand for those who aren’t trying to achieve the same things,
I mostly meant tunning some mobs in areas that never beeing runned to more interesting values for players. No one will run area, if mobs there twice harder then in another area, with same exp output (if not count pops for sure). There are several of such areas on each continent for any random range of levels. Not about raising old areas for top players objectives. Though there are plenty of groups areas there, so its still counts.
Its just slow and steady work. I even would like to do it, if my application will move further eventually.
Neptune wrote: 4. Hardcore Characters: When I worked on another mud, we introduced what we called hardcore characters.
They were bigger, meaner, faster, more adept, and more powerful. There was one catch: they only got one life.
I personally dont like that idea. Never was a fan of one-life characters. Though it probably not that hard to implement, but requires a lot of specific decisions. And worth only if player saying, that they will play that mode. Which i highly doubt in our conditions and game concepts.
Neptune wrote: 6. “Worthless” things. The elements of the game that are deemed “worthless” have become so because we’ve increased so much over the years - the attainable zeniths of spells, skills, requirements, mob caps and capabilities and equipment caps.
This is not likely to change in its present course, and speaks volumes in regards to the attempts to maintain a balance across the board and a point I was trying to make in bullet number 3.
Its a question of will to do that mostly. Any situation can be resolved if somebody want to take care of it and have approvement to do that.
Neptune wrote: 7. Caps. Some things need to be capped like things measured in percentages because you shouldn’t have some things with no element of percentile risk.
Spell casting and skill performance is a good example of that.
There cannot be a hundred percent guarantee with some basic elements of the game or else there’s no risk and no challenge in that regard.
Other things don’t matter such as, say, linear measurements such as hunger and thirst.
No one asks about removing randomness in basic concepts iirc. So that is hipothetical question.
Neptune wrote: I won’t concern myself too much with any decision process regarding how the costs of each new shop element should be scaled.
One, I don’t really care. Two, I’m not as intimately knowledgeable about the shops as some players and staff members.
But I’d be interested in hearing some of your thoughts on some of the ideas I’ve presented today as way to support multiple, if not infinite, rebirths and progressions.
Most of the ideas we(and you in that post) writes ends with two things.
Nobody want to do it, because its hard and we all have life etc.
Veto from immortal team(there is opinion around, that its mostly Splork’s veto, though noone knows how its exactly discussed inside).
So me and Gorka concentrated now on exactly one idea of futher character progress. Which requires least of coding.
And we even got Teker’s agreement to do it. **So all we need now is approvement. **
Maybe some discussions about scales after we got agreement that thing should and could be done.
Filk wrote: 2. Veto from immortal team(there is opinion around, that its mostly Splork’s veto, though noone knows how its exactly discussed inside).
Splork and I email and I can call him if need be
Atm I have final say on most things.
2a. I rarely veto, and the current staff has approval to do most things. They email me before doing them mostly.
Your application is in my hands. Just trying to decide how to proceed.
I already commented on the only way I would consider non primes to use prime skills… not as powerful (scaled) and use more of whatever points it uses..mana moves etc.
Probably more I forgot to comment on but I am on my phone in my car waiting in parking lot
So from the looks of things, it would appear that Breeze is in support of rebirth providing prime skills, although they would be nerfed to some degree and cost more. When I made such a proposal a year back, I suggested opening up prime skills accordingly to classorder at each rebirth. For example, Driven is a mo/dr/ma/cl/ne/wa/ba/th, so first rebirth would make druid prime skills available, second rebirth would make mage prime skills available, third rebirth would make cleric prime skills available, and so forth. The idea didn’t catch at the time, probably because fewer players were rebirthing and the game wasn’t quite ready for it.
From a nerf point of view, here was my proposal:
Mage
Frostbolt Costs 30 mana instead of 25. Damage is 7% lower.
Mirror Image Costs 25 mana instead of 20, only able to cast 3 of them instead of 5.
Reflection Costs 90 mana instead of 45.
Blizzard Costs 65 mana instead of 50.
Cleric
Dark mace Costs 90 mana instead of 45. Instead of completely busting sanc, it does halfway between sanc and busted sanc.
Aerial servant Costs 100 mana instead of 50. Hitpoints of servant are 85% that of the cleric’s servant.
Circle of healing Costs 150 mana instead of 85.
Kylas delight Costs 500 mana instead of 250.
Necro
Death pact Costs 200 mana instead of 100.
Wraithform Costs 150 mana instead of 80.
Ritual of Resurrection Costs all of your mana to create and to summon again from juju charm (and must be at max mana).
Druid
Canopied Arbor Costs 70 mana instead of 35.
Shield of thorns Costs 120 mana instead of 60.
Shapeshift form to form Percentage learned 15% lower than druid prime.
Actual forms Prime-only forms would cost 15% more (piasa, for example).
Bard
Song of the mist Costs 20 mana instead of 10.
Knights blessing Costs 40 mana instead of 20.
Call of the sidhe Costs 10 mana instead of 5, charms created have only 1 charge.
Dance of the seven luck gods Costs 150 mana instead of 100.
Knights prayer Costs 60 instead of 40.
Monk
Focus/Kensai Focus takes 2 more iterations, Kensai takes 1 more iteration to achieve full focus. Damage added to deathgrip/wraithtouch 15% degraded.
Presage/Prediction 15% lower percentage of success.
Wraithtouch Damage reduced 10%, costs 5 more mvs.
Deathtouch Damage reduced 10%, costs 5 more mvs.
Warrior
Parry 15% lower percentage of success.
Second wind Costs 80 mvs for non-avatars, 40 mvs for avatars.
Heavy armor proficiency Opens up AC to -12.0 instead of -14.0.
Riposte 15% lower percentage of success.
Massive critical hit 15% lower percentage of success.
Thief
Circle Costs 5 more mvs.
Apply poison Duration only 3 minutes, damage / other bonus from poison reduced 15%.
Sleight of hand ?? Unsure what this even does ??
that only works if the player keeps their CLASSO the same each time though.
Yea, I think that’s a reasonable restriction that most people would agree to… 2nd rebirth sets you back to 1/1/1, 3rd rebirth sets you back to 1/1/1/1, etc.
Driven’s proposal looks like all kinds of fun. Not digging the doubled cost of some utility spells like shield of thorns, but most of the other numbers are within reason.
It looks like a lot of work, but it would definitely bring a lot of new life into the game.
If the skills are designed so they can be zeroed out during rebirth, I don’t see why we’d have to lock people into a classo as long as we have a mechanism to remove skills they no longer have access to. I like the ability to alter classo to give a different feel to each life.
When does access to these skills open up? I’m not sure we want a warrior mage running around newbatia launching frostbolts… although I’m not sure what harm exactly it would cause. Probably screw up coliseum rankings for sure!
I’d probably open access to past life skills at level 1 avatar. A rebirth char can get there very quick if they aren’t screwing around, and after that point most of the potential for abuse goes away.
Arguments against infinite rebirth:
Players will get too strong!
Infinite Drachma is bad! (See part 1)
Ain’t nobody got time for that! (Yeah, this one is totally a strawman)
I’d like to challenge the assumption that autoquests need to be cleared every rebirth. The initial quest/coliseum reset for Josiah (Nov 2016) was done almost as an afterthought.
While it has been enjoyable going through some of that content again, it may not be appropriate for serial rebirthers to get that same benefit every time. This could help mitigate concern #2.
We could reset autoquests every other rebirth, or every third, or even never again after the first time. After a single rebirth, I’m already in the position of considering the purchase of tokens of extreme alteration rather than actual quest equipment.
I don’t have a rebuttal for concern #1, although some previous players have suggested that it can be safely ignored.
I don’t like much driven’s proposal, complicated to implement, difficult to balance if something is not quite right and there is no justification for some of the figures he’s choosen… and once again, it’s destroying the idea of primes. It’s always the same people who come out with a boner at any suggestion of weakening primes. I love the idea of difference, it gives the game flavor and supports the idea of people working together based on there skill sets. You mess with that at your peril. Does the game get better by making Sochi redundant in a group… does the game get better by making Ezekiel as a mage redundant to 1.1k warrior mana with massive BONUS_SPELL_BONUS eq?
Also when I look at his proposal in the context of a solo xp run, I’d only stand to gain advantage from death touch. When the rubber hits the road, not many prime skills in this game get you xp faster, and if other primes skills are to be less economical, then how will they be much better than the non-prime options we all have now? At the end of the day, I’d much rather more power in my prime skills.
Here is the stats from one of my xp runs…
REPORT Run Num: 1 Run Time: 664 Run XP: 116092891 XP Rate: 629419288.55422 REPORT Time Resting: 16 Time Standing: 420 Time Fighting: 225 Time Sleeping: 4
It’s a reoccuring theme in every run… normally more time is spent in the standing position than any other position during the run. Most prime skills won’t effect these numbers… the elephant in the room no one talks about is in this mud is mobility. These prime skill ideas are like over sweet cakes and sickly chocolates, they seem good for us, but either make little difference or potentially could ruin what makes each character special.
Gorka will never have the spell saves, the spell bonus, the mana, nor the mana regen of Ezekiel, so how is gaining access to frostbolt changing the unique nature of the classes? You will still be better played as a warrior than a mage, but now you have some more toys to play with. I don’t see the issue. Sochi’s songs can affect far more people’s than yours ever will and so we will always go with his gods of war over yours.
I have a lot more to say, but it’s hard on mobile. This game is not only about max xp/minute. Just because you don’t increase your effeciency in xp doesn’t automatically disqualify a feature from something that is fun or worthy to strive for. Getting piasa will be silly awesome. Getting second wind and parry will be silly awesome. Getting the ability to have mirros and solo Yrdan the ninja. Trust me when I say wraithtouch is awesome. Playing with a juju zombie and building a new eqset for followers… with second wind will be amazing. Do they all increase my damage/millisecond? No, but they are FUN.
Breeze wrote: 2. Atm I have final say on most things.
2a. I rarely veto, and the current staff has approval to do most things. They email me before doing them mostly.
Breeze, would you be so nice and comment that post
And aprrove it, or say why you think its not posible.
So Teker could start working on it when he have time and desire
Breeze wrote: 4. I already commented on the only way I would consider non primes to use prime skills… not as powerful (scaled) and use more of whatever points it uses..mana moves etc.
Well. Its good point. And Driven offered some mostly good confines. While i agree with Gorka, that a lot of non-prime things doesnt change anything at all, it still could be fun to have.
And with rebirth stats shop, that would be another way to improve chars in two different directions. So player could choose if they want to rebirth to add diversity to their playstyle, or get exp for extra stats. Any purchases in rebirth shop should follow same rules as avatar shop do for non 9x40 - only 1/2 applies.
Agree, Fluffy, I see the rebirth shop as a short-term thing and the rebirth progression more long-term. Let’s get a creator-decision on the rebirth shop so we can move forward with that.
Driven wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MStoUfrsCig
Gorka will never have the spell saves, the spell bonus, the mana, nor the mana regen of Ezekiel, so how is gaining access to frostbolt changing the unique nature of the classes?
Go check my 6+ high scores in the coliseum, and then try and tell me my mage powers aren’t already functioning higher than most mages… and here you are wanting to fiddle with it more. It already has players bleeting discrimination and white warrior privilege. The fact of the matter is, I out blast a large proportion of mages in this game with my saves and spell bonus already without even second winding, and it’s kind of stupid… and you want to fiddle with about 20 of these game balances all at once. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Your idea sounds attractive, in the same way beauty is only skin deep. I’d be more inclined to make a common new set of rebirth skills every rebirth can get to try and limit non-prime specialization, while strengthening our prime identity. Say no to sloth communism and equality of outcome! Let people be individuals who are special for a reason so we are forced to work together better. You’re attacking the very foundation of the game - that is warriors, clerics, mages, druids, necro’s, bards, monks and thieves come together because of there individual inadequacies to group so that they are better together. I don’t think we should mess with such a core foundational principle of the game, there are millions of other ideas to try without “putting girls in the boy scouts.”
Gorka, let’s try to keep it civil.
It is obvious that you really like prime class being the defining characteristic of your play. Your disagreement has been noted. It also seems that, so far, you are alone in that opinion. Does anyone else share Gorka’s opinion that prime skills should be untouchable? Please speak up!
All the players I’ve spoken to directly, as well as the other players in this thread, are all excited about the potential of a significant New Thing. Would it increase my XP/minute to be have a pet juju zombie? Absolutely not, the very idea is farcical. Would it be fun? Absolutely.
Please you expand on the “millions of other ideas” you want us to consider. Share the really good ones here so we can have a change of heart and start backing your brilliant innovations!
I think prime class should be most important.
the way its heading now there is no significant difference in characters at high levels… its either a caster or a no caster.. killing same mobs… etc..
I like that the game is replayable… that is.. i play a different classo, and its largely a new game.
Driven wrote: Yea, I think that’s a reasonable restriction that most people would agree to… 2nd rebirth sets you back to 1/1/1, 3rd rebirth sets you back to 1/1/1/1, etc.
I’d rather simply save the amount of rebirths and enable skills depending on each classo each time the char rebirths.
For one, the first rebirth is a class order change.
Second, even the 2nd rebirth may be a classo adjustment.
It means that fixing class order is rather limiting.
Now imagine someone having played with same classo for 4 rebirths to unlock certain prime skills.
What if he wants to change their classo due to necessity or for a change of gameplay?
Thus, if a player had accumulated several rebirths/prime skills, he’d still need to change classo.
Surely that should allow him to use the prime skills of his new classo.
In short:
log the number of times a char has rebirthed
let him pick the appropriate amount of skills from his new classo at avatar, where the entire classo has been picked
rather count the number of new prime skills one can pick - don’t limit at 1 per class, because some classes have several (presage, focus/apply poison, sleight of hand).
For example, at 3d rebirth I chose my classo to be:
wa/mo/ma/ba
Id be free to pick 3 prime skills from mo/th/ba, but I’d be able to go with focus, presage and call of the sidhe.
On my 5th rebirth at
wa/dr/mo/ma/th
I’d pick shield of thorns, presage, focus, apply poison, sleight of hand, for example.
Re: unique skills for primes.
I’m not against new skills for prime classes for rebirths - warrior lacks serious active skills despite having the white privelege. Who doesn’t like new powerful skills. That, however, would require serious creative thinking, discussions and planning.
It’s simpler to work with existing concepts of prime skills, albeit neutered for non-primes.
Also, I don’t think these concepts are mutually exclusive. If one can pick between a new skill for his class or a costly skill from another class, that choice might be interesting.
Here are some types of ideas i’d like to see in a rebirth (class/skill set)…
Area recall points
Shadowwalk mobs
Personal continent based beacons that work like clan recalls
Some of Neptunes original ideas…
//Gold Accumulation Bonus
//Skill Percentage Bonus
//Spell Percentage Bonus
//Raise the caps of secondary and tertiary max_stats
//Mana Regen Bonus
//HP Regen Bonus
//Move Regen Bonus
//Age Reduction
//Weight Percentage Reduction
Essentially a common avatar type class for rebirths… a far better idea than giving me frostbolt… and without the un-originality of “I don’t know what I want, so just give me everything.” Other people, even Driven have posted original ideas that could form a rebirth skill set/class. But we must appreciate the time this would be to implement, thats why I kept my proposal for Rebirth shop so easy/simple because these threads tend to get bogged down… already we are page 4.
First, I want to see rebirth shop, so I can work on some existing +1’s.
Gorka, the addition of prime classes on rebirth is a natural extension of our 8-class system and abstractly makes sense from the context of “rebirth”. I hate to break it to you, but you are already a mage, with access to firewind and disintegrate. What truly makes a prime mage tick is the real question. Having -31 spellsaves and a badass spell bonus, with tons of mana, high intelligence, and good regen. Having frostbolt does add to its unique nature, but that is not the only thing that makes a mage a mage. Like I said, you aren’t going to make a mage start fighting like a warrior and vice versa… it just wouldn’t be optimal. Your counterargument that frostbolt would improve Gorka in the arena is laughable, because you yourself are vying for +hand damage and +damage… how is that not going to improve your arena score and “mess with the balance”? You argue against yourself in the same sentence. And to continue to hold to the idea that your firewind (or eventual frostbolt at 90% nerfed damage, nerfed 30 mana) somehow replaces Ezekiel in a group is even more laughable. His frostbolt already does 900 damage… your wind does 600 if you’re lucky, and I doubt your frostbolt would ever cap 750. Not to mention that he can cast 50 of them and you can cast 30 of them. The difference is laughable.
If you disagree with that or can’t see it, then I don’t know what to tell you. A lot of other people see it and are excited by it. Saying it’s a “dumb idea” and that you are going to “call me out on it” is completely unnecessary and does not engender a healthy environment. It’s toxic and childish. Generally you do a good job of arguing for things, but a little civility goes a long way.
That being said, let’s discuss the rebirth shop and get some consensus on it before this thread devolves into more childishness.
I’m so glad there is an adult in the room, and it just happens to be you.
You forgot that I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.
Back on topic or I lock this thread.
I may not always reply (eg. THINGS I ALREADY COMMENTED ON, BUT I ALWAYS READ..)
Sorry Breeze. I think we are hoping to receive approval on Gorka’s proposal here:
I recommend we stay with this proposal and that at some point in the future tackle the potential for infinite progression (with exponential requirements), as Breeze has commented that something would need to happen to the mobs to allow infinite progression to go through. Given the extraordinary complexity of that, I recommend staying with Gorka’s proposal. Questions to be answered:
Is Gorka’s proposal legit as-is? (with the exception of adding perm glamour that Taron brought up to enable perm visage)
If not, does Gorka’s proposal need to be scaled back? (as in fewer points available for purchase and/or higher xp requirements)
Thanks ahead of time for your time, Breeze… life is insane with kids and we appreciate your time.
Gorka, when I suggested to add quests for us to earn area recalls, Splork said we had enough beacons.
Otherwise, I support the idea.
Teron wrote: Gorka, when I suggested to add quests for us to earn area recalls, Splork said we had enough beacons. Otherwise, I support the idea.
Yeah, well I was thinking that the connection room (generally the start point on the map) should be the area recall point and it should be fixed, although for an area like dweb clearly it should be down near the dungeon. Although for some areas it’s not useful, there are plenty of situations where it is…
You’re fighting a mob, your losing… you can area recall rather than full recall.
Some areas have parts that are one way and you need to return.
Leaders could area recall and convo the group back to a start point to continue the run.
I’m sure there are many other reasons. In regards to old areas not being run, in some cases they aren’t run because the xp is crap, but in some cases the run is too long to kill one or two mobs. Here is the run to grvaldh on island for instance…
speedwalk(“3e1s1e1s1e1s2e1s2u1e1d1e1n”)
speedwalk(“3n1e3n1w2n2w1u2w1d1w1s3w1n1w2s2d1w2s1w”)
speedwalk(“1w2n2w1n2w1n3w1n1w1s1w2n1w2n2w1n1w2w1n2w”)
AH also has some crazy stupid runs, we don’t really have the beacons to cover them (my greater beacon is fixed at ogres - so it’s always tied up) without running each time, and the metrics from my runs that I analyze prove that more than half the time of any run is actually not used fighting, and a large proportion of that is running and moving through excess doors and trig traps.
There are two areas of improvement that can be targeted to minimize standing time on xp runs… and they are perm spells and more mobility options, and they could be crafted into the game in a lot of ways, such as one way portals openable and purchased from vaults to area recall points, or other creative means.
Guys, why are you discussing all that in that topic? There is one important question up. Give Breeze opportunity to answer please, because he kinda miss all questions in your spam.
Filk wrote:
Breeze wrote: 2. Atm I have final say on most things.
2a. I rarely veto, and the current staff has approval to do most things. They email me before doing them mostly.
Breeze, would you be so nice and comment that post
And aprrove it, or say why you think its not posible.
So Teker could start working on it when he have time and desire
I veto Splork’s comments about additional area recalls :P