I’m enjoying the banter about various imbalances in the game, so here’s an experiment in designing equipment by groupthink. Let’s take one slot for one prime class that is not flushed out, and flush out the rough parameters of what that equipment should look like.
I have chosen monk prime arm for the following reasons:
There is little improvement in the slot from newbie levels. 9x40 prime monks are wearing level 30 prime gear.
The slot is one of high importance to that class. For example, in this case one would expect that monks should have cool arm gear since they’re punching all the time and you can reasonably expect that arm gear would affect hand damage, a monk’s most prized stat.
This class can’t fully achieve cap for the stat in question, i.e. currently monk’s can’t achieve max hand dam.
There is better, comparable eq for another similar class available at a higher level, in this case the thief 2x40 sleeves.
The best prime gear for this slot+class is little better than non-prime eq that becomes available at a higher level, sleeves of enlightenment.
So my question to you guys is, how would you outline the linear progression for hand dam on arm for me at various levels? as regards to AC, HD, Hit, Dam?, max_str?…
And what are the other obvious prime+slot equipment for other classes that could be outlined in linear fashion? Would you outline a progression of weap dam arm for war prime for example? I think this type of approach could help organize the effort.
Oh, and regarding drachma equipment. Remember that it is not a problem to introduce eq that is better than drachma shop equipment. We have dealt with this issue before and come to the conclusion that we will not be constrained in the creation of new equipment by drach gear. Perhaps if some piece is made obsolete by a forge, then that drachma piece itself could be a cp, or we could some kind of buyback. In any case it would be a solvable issue.
Nice post JB.
First point, MAX_STR already has a linear progression, you can wear more with 40’s, and wearing more before that essentially does very little. This already controls the “worth” of how much you can wear and makes it linear, so that’s great! Might I add, as I am trying to do a MAX_STR warrior build, there is a workable path currently, it’s not all doom and gloom for eq, sometimes there is a path and sometimes it makes sense.
Second point: Linear progression is easy to design. You need to think about your “ends.” The best and worst eq for your monk arms… and then pace out the progression between your best and worst ends.
Case in Point: Monk Arms…
MAX_STR: A prime monk can only wear 6 points, there are about 17 slots. Hence best MAX_STR on any item should be 1.
AC: Best ac for arms is -0.9. Damage arms comes at an ac penalty… therefore AC for arms with dam is prob -0.6-0.7 at best.
HIT: There are few items with more than +2 hit. Hence max + hit should be about 2. Note: 17 slots.
DAM: There are few items with +2 dam. We are making a monk build. +dam items could unbalance thieves therefore better not to use dam. Hand dam contains the problem to only monks. Prime eq, and prime stats and there smart use are essential for maintaining balance. Unfortunately some classes are suffering in the dam department simply because the dam stat helps thieves more than anyone else. That was a mistake…
HANDDAM: Most hand dam items are +2. There are about 17 slots. Count in stuff at the shop and runes, and yeah rule of thumb is I wouldn’t exceed +2 hand dam, and this gets us close to cap anyway.
In most cases the worst eq is near zero, or just +1 in one particular stat. So put all this together… and I think you have something like -0.6/-0.7 +2 Hand Dam + 1 MAX_STR +hit for a 9x40 arms… reduce the benefit by about half for 4x40… and you get something like -0.5 +2 Hand Dam +2 hit. Etc etc. Hope you see where I am going with these ideas.
That’s pretty good. I was thinking tho that the handdam on a 9x40 monk prime arm item could higher without unbalancing thief because of multiple stabs.
I like the idea of theorycrafting some equipment, but I’m not sold that monk prime sleeves is a good starting point for the following reasons:
Prime-only equipment sucks [citation needed]
The new forge sleeves are superior to prime sleeves, so monks don’t have to wear newbie gear anymore.
Regarding #5: Are we assuming now that prime gear should be the ultimate equipment? Historically speaking, prime gear has very low restrictions and is usually obsolete by the time you reach high levels.
(Yes, I hear you saying the sword of valor is never obsolete; I refute that with: ‘remove sword’)
Josiah wrote: Regarding #5: Are we assuming now that prime gear should be the ultimate equipment? Historically speaking, prime gear has very low restrictions and is usually obsolete by the time you reach high levels.
Ah, yeah I was assuming that, mistakenly I guess.
I think the best way to achieve balance and scaling would be to assign point values to the variety of bonuses that equipment provides. Equipment that makes stats or abilities worse would count those as negative point values. Then compare the various pieces of equipment based on their total points. Some sort of point range would then be defined for each category of levels (1-7, 8-14, 15-20, 20-39, 1x40, 2x, etc). Value and rent cost would be based on the points and could be modified up or down at a particular point cost/refund. Some RPGs use this sort of system (Hero Games in particular) to try to balance PCs, their equipment, and spells/skills.
Teker, that’s a reasonable way of doing it.
However, you’d have to analyze, which abilities do/heal more damage, than others, to assign the points to the bonuses. As an added benefit, it’d help clear up avatar shop stat costs.
It would be difficult to arrive at a fair value for DAM.
DAM by it’s self for a melee attack, is completely over valued by the game. DAM in a multiplier such as stab, is extremely valuable. STAB DAM should have been made the multiplier for stab. I don’t think it’s fair that everyone is paying the price a thief should pay for DAM. So what would you do when effectively DAM has a high and a low value? What is the real value of DAM… it becomes class relative. It’s a difficult question. In most cases any stat that increases mana or regen would work out more valuable than dam, if the dam is not multiplied.
Teker also suggested that the stats of an object could decide the object value and rent. A completely rational and logical thought. But sloth has never worked that way, some objects have insane values for what they are… case in point… a beaded bracelet. I for one capitalize on incorrect object values for eq and yet coins is still a grind. I could imagine the shock to some players if eq values got “fixed.” Like to some degree we have been taking advantage of this issue right from the start. Sloth has always been so “bumpy” with things that don’t make sense, to some degree we have all taken advantage of them… do we really want them “fixed?”
In general I am in favor of change… but also part of me wonders if there is too much change, will it still be sloth? Like these days fargate is up most days, and regening in groups is rare (if groups run at all). There are always some sort of bonuses up, and there is an xp bonus for the number of 40’s, it’s still kind of sloth, but in some ways it also isn’t. I have some old logs from a few years back that make very amusing reading in the context of how things work today. In my first days on sloth “Nab” was the “Wow! Monk.” I have a log of his eq, which included a patched black cloak and his eq doesn’t even scratch on what there is today.
Those who played s2, like why did you even bother… the fails must have been excessive… and yet this was probably the time of sloths best success… If I sound conflicted about some of these issues, it’s because I am.
In s5, everyone can stab, so everyone has to pay the price for dam. Though I agree that dam is more valuable to thieves/monks, than others, thanks to multipliers.
I don’t think rent values should depend on stats, because 7x40s+ will have at least 3 eq sets with high stats, making it very, very expensive to rent.
For example, even with our current rent prices, my daily rent is about 230k, and I bring it down to 170k by wearing high rent stuff - most of which is ac, for some reason.
And don’t get me started on the gold grind, I have a draft saved about it and I have yet to finish it (as well as about monk arm suggestions).
- S2-3 success has nothing to do with changes. Back then, we played on ELT monitors and MUDs offered better graphics and gameplay, than most games. With the coming of high-quality graphical MMORPGs, MUDs became less popular, it’s not about changes, at all.
I don’t fear changes: the game needs to evolve. However, right now the biggest issue is the number of players, not the game changes, unless they are popular in the MUD world and lacking in Sloth (such as seeing damage numbers for your hits).
juggleblood wrote:
Josiah wrote: Regarding #5: Are we assuming now that prime gear should be the ultimate equipment? Historically speaking, prime gear has very low restrictions and is usually obsolete by the time you reach high levels.
Ah, yeah I was assuming that, mistakenly I guess.
What do others think about this? Is what Josiah saying an accepted norm, or rather is it that development of prime equipment development has been neglected? Should there be high level prime equipment? Should monks expect that they will have more available hand damage via eq than warrior prime? Another way to ask this is to ask if people think that classes should become more specialized through equipment or would players prefer than the high level equipment is not prime so that they can use every play style effectively, regardless of prime class?
Mark me down as a firm supporter of having more powerful equipment limited to the players prime class.
I hate this globalized world where everyone is obsessed with being the same as everyone else. Diversity is something that should be celebrated… for everything in this world there is an opposite. For every male there is a female, for every black there is a white, for every objective thinker there is a subjective thinker. People are like food they all have a certain flavor. You can’t just expect to put every food in a bowl together and expect it to taste nice. It doesn’t work in the real world… and I don’t think it will work in sloth. Celebrate our differences and the things that make us unique. Having everybody the same does not encourage people to work together, it discourages it.
It’s through our specialties all working together that all is made stronger.
I’d say diversity should lie in our characters, not in what we wear. Just to look from different point of view - Sloth is a game with mulitclass system, so nothing wrong when you try playing a game of not strictly your prime class. When you, for example, figure out you have thief in classo and make damage set, you would rather consider and discard drachma dagger, than stickicking to bolt/kris option. So I vote for real cool eq not being prime, but being the way it currently is - high restrictions, low drop chance, hard mobs or drachma value(either shop or autoquest). Also, agreeing with Josiah point, current prime equipment is somewhat good, but for a mid game(aside the sword for non-josiah-warriors).
K, k, thx, bye!
JB, why not have both?
Some prime gear can be more powerful, than ingame gear, like those herb clasps - they are unique for their slots. It doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be low-level prime items to make players feel the progress.
Prime classes can and should become more specialized in what they can do.
I can’t imagine prime classes not getting special prime gear, otherwise, why bother with prime gear at all?
However, we shouldn’t leave out options for other classes either, they just have to be less specialized, than prime. For example, Taron/Alris as 8th thieves can’t use 50 stab dam from eq, because our 9x40 cap is 31(?) and we can buy 10 from the avatar shop. So we don’t need stab dam on most gear in our stab sets. Doesn’t mean we don’t need it at all, however.
Also, we already have prime spell dam robes and belts and unique 30lev thief sleeves that are just a bit worse, than csleeves, so they are already more powerful, than most ingame items.
So, I suggest we have it all:
prime gear for lower levels to make players feel good about themselves and get a few powerful items they’ll replace later
prime gear that’s as good as tri40/drachma items or better, because primes need to reach their caps and stack a few others, because we do need more, than one
non-prime BIS (best in slot) gear to complement prime/tri40/drachma gear
It doesn’t mean there there need to be 18 prime BIS items, maybe 2-4 at most?
Some non-prime gear can be specialized for the roles, like -ac +maxcon +dam reduction tank gear for groups or it could combine several stats for solo, like the pirate hat -ac +maxcon -saves, -ac +dam +spell dam sleeves, etc
You can’t have it both ways cuz either there exists prime eq that is best in class for the slot or it doesn’t exist. You are basically on the same side of the argument as Gorka, that it would be cool to specialize the classes by making available upper end prime eq. So we have 2 responses for and 2 responses against.
Now that I have a better perspective on this, I’m thinking that if I introduced monk prime arms it would be for 2x40, to mirror the thief prime arms and then if we make monk arms above sleeves of enlightenment (5x40) I’d say those should probably be non-prime, in keeping with tradition, unless there were wide support for moving in a new direction.
Not so sure Taron is on my side, most independent players will be anti-prime eq, esp warriors wanting hand dam.
In the light of recent discussions… What the hell do monks currently need more hand dam for?
What about this already existing fairly good item monk prime item? (sleeves of black ice)
You’ve lost me! :shock:
So, if there’s a BIS prime item, won’t there be a slightly worse non-prime item with similar stats? That’s the assumption I have, when I suggest prime eq.
If we get prime eq, but no adequate non-prime eq for the slot and role, then it’s a sucky choice and we need the variant, where both primes and non-primes can fill a slot to accomodate their role/style.
Again, primes have higher caps, so they need more primary stats to reach them, which is what prime eq allows them to do. If there’s no prime eq, then primes will need more items to fill their caps, which means they’ll have less other stats (ie, more hd instead of -saves/spelldam/hitroll), so it only gives a marginal advantage to primes.
Why don’t you make a non prime item that attaches an “item specific prime clasp” with a few more bits and pieces? Best of both worlds…
Sleeves of Black Ice are monk prime 30. I personally think it’s kinda lame that at 9x40 a player is wearing the same equipment as a newb. You guys were talking about linear progress, well to me equipment is an obvious candidate for applying some sort of linear progress.
And you guys are repeating your same thoughts as if I don’t understand. I kinda agree that it would be cool if the classes were more specialized thru the application of UPPER END prime gear (think 7x40+). But as Alris and Josiah have pointed out, this would be going in a new direction. There is no having it all ways. We change paths or we don’t.
Lemme submit to you an imaginary piece of super top end monk arm gear:
Gorka Skin Sleeves, 40 Avatar Restricted
.6 AC, 3 HD, +1 hit, +2 Dam Reduction, +2 hp regen
Now, the question I put to you. Would the game be better off with that piece as Prime, or non-prime? And a second question, what should be the role of drachma equipment, i.e. which equipment should be drachma, and why?
I have to point out that sleeves of black ice are reward for ingame autoquest. One for monks, similar to the others for each class. And while that those quest rewards equipment probably was not intended to be used all the way up to 40 avatar, and some of those probably not good enough to be used at all… The valor sword is a a same type of prime-autoquest-reward item and its decently good, and with attached clasp it is brilliant enough to be used up to 40 av (unless you are Josiah). What I am trying to say - I always felt its a bit unfair that other classes prime aq rewards are not up to par to warrior one. My idea to maybe revise those autoquests rewards and also add ingame clasps for every item to bring the stats even higher in later game. Of course clasps should be hard to obtain, similarly to valor sword clasp. So if you feel that those sleeves are adequate for their level, you can add clasp to boost them. Can always make those in forge1 clasps, forge2 clasps (emerald gauntlets anyone?), to break it in smaller steps than from 1x40 to 9x40.
P.S. I am not monk, but +hp regen on monk sleeves? seriously? 2? make it 20hps or I dont know, 20 moves maybe.
I’d rather see a variety of available clasps for a given slot, rather than taking up the clasp slot to bring lower level equipment up. For example, I’d rather see better sleeves than black ice for higher level, without having to give up the arm clasp slot to do it.
How many players support using 1x40 gear all the way thru to 9x40? Such as valor or sleeves of black ice? Only 5 people in this conversation. It’s hard to get a feel for what people want to see.
I’ve been drafting this post since the thread started, so it’s a bit long.
- About stats on prime eq
mo prime sleeves have -dam reduction, a good stat on its own, so prime sleeves should have -dr too.
there are gloves of yellow rose prime mo +3hd, which are better for monks, than the 1k drachma Godhand, because they don’t cap HD to benefit from +bonus hd.
That we have +2hd on mo prime sleeves, doesn’t mean we can’t have +3hd for a 9x40 prime slot.
we measure progress by 40s, there could be items or upgrades (similar to emerald gaunts) for every 40:
Prime sleeves:
20mo -0.4 +2hd
30mo -0.5 +2hd -dam reduction
2x40 -0.5 +2hd +hit
3x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit
4x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit -dam reduction
5x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit -dam reduction +max str
6x40 -0.5 +2hd +3hit -dam reduction +max str
7x40 -0.5 +3hd +3hit -dam reduction +max str
8x40 -0.6 +3hd +3hit -dam reduction +max str
9x40 -0.6 +3hd +3hit -2dam reduction +max str
This is for monk prime.
For non-prime:
2x40 -0.5 +2hd +hit
3x40 -0.5 +2hd +hit
4x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit
5x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit
6x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit +max str
7x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit +max str
8x40 -0.6 +2hd +2hit +max str
9x40 -0.6 +2hd +2hit -dam reduction +max str
It also seems that +2hd for the slot as the limit seems low even for non-prime. Please tell me I’m not alone to think this.
- Adding +2hpr is pointless thanks to contemplation or +100hpr in fights.
If you want to add a minor stat, consider +hit, -saves/+3-4 spell bonus or +3mvr.
- So, the item stats you shared belongs to non-primes, but there could be a better prime piece.
Please explain to me, why we can’t have both: a powerful non-prime item progression and a more powerful prime eq for the same slot.
- Drachma items should have at least 2 major stat advantages over ingame eq for the slot, including prime eq.
I’m not sure, how to combine that with prime/non prime eq: we get prime and non-prime items for the same slot/role. Then again, if we do have them, we can filter them in shops by: list prime or list nonprime, or list arms.
juggleblood wrote: I’d rather see a variety of available clasps for a given slot, rather than taking up the clasp slot to bring lower level equipment up.
That I agree. It could be quite fun to customize item with clasps to fit your own preference. Too bad, what can be a good example of it – daiphanous gown – is not, with non-detachable clasp its something that requires clasp to be of use, just to be an item. Another example, works for caster classes, tanzanite over herbalist clasps(though as I understand, herabalist clasps for casters are too much better than tanzanite even for soloing). Yet, it could be intresting, to play some with clasps. For example: armor clasp versus damage or spell damage for one item, mana versus mana regen etc.
About sleeves of black ice. I am not talking about all the prime eq, only eight prime ones from autoquests. Those imho should be a bit more important due to aq origin. Unlike others, those cost drachma after all and could be sold. If not uprgrading with clasp, stats could be buffed with upgrading item itself, with level restricted autoquests, requiring at some step giving up original black ice and receiving improved ones. No?
Teron wrote: Please explain to me, why we can’t have both: a powerful non-prime item progression and a more powerful prime eq for the same slot.
As long as there are adequate counterparts, should be all ok.
Only ingame shoulders with +damage are prime thief? Not very appealing. But now also autoquest and long forge ones without prime restriction? All fine with the world.
I think its a fine stats progression for prime and non prime you made. 2hd might look low if you don’t consider others stats. Comparing .6 2hd 2hit drduct mstr to .4 2hd? Definitely good improvement.
About drachma - there is also a matter to consider which item should be drachma or not, as of now i dont really see much of pattern. Some items in shop are totally useless, some are mediocre, some are the top of the game, so how its actually decided which top item is brought by forge and which by shop?
alris wrote: so how its actually decided which top item is brought by forge and which by shop?
No clue. I think Tox was last to work drachma gear.
I had tried to add something similar to what teron suggested 3-4 years ago but it got too complicated so I gave up…
Here is a link to the item stats and all of the items are actually already created…
<LINK_TEXT text=“https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxlug1 … sp=sharing”>https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxlug1EQ2gzNS3l3T2FyNW1zZm5BZVZzc0stX2xTcnRmLUFJ/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>
71580 7259 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 2x40
71581 7260 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 3x40
71582 7261 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 4x40
71583 7262 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 5x40
71584 7263 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 6x40
71585 7264 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 7x40
71586 7265 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 8x40
71587 7266 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 9x40
71588 7267 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 2x40
71589 7268 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 3x40
71590 7269 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 4x40
71591 7270 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 5x40
71592 7271 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 6x40
71593 7272 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 7x40
71594 7273 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 8x40
71595 7274 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 9x40
71596 7275 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 2x40
71597 7276 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 3x40
71598 7277 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 4x40
71599 7278 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 5x40
71600 7279 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 6x40
*** Press return ***
71601 7280 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 7x40
71602 7281 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 8x40
71603 7282 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 9x40
71604 7283 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 2x40
71605 7284 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 3x40
71606 7285 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 4x40
71607 7286 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 5x40
71608 7287 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 6x40
71609 7288 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 7x40
71610 7289 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 8x40
71611 7290 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 9x40
etc etc etc
Alris, it seems we do need some sort of a calculator/algorithm to come up with drachma prices and to see, which items are more useful and should be drachma instead of ingame.
Splork, where exactly did it get complicated?
To sort out some “basic” values of stats… You need to simulate battles using these variables…
Number of Rounds to Kill simulated Mob
Avg Dam taken by Tank Per Round
Average Number of Player Attacks
Number of Stabs Thief Lands
Total Combat Time in Seconds
I simulated a battle based on 15 rounds, tank taking 250hp’s per round and the thief landing 2 stabs…
From that I worked out…
Circle Dam, Kick Dam, Flail Dam, Spell Bonus would appear to be of equal value.
Stab Dam - Should have been 4x cheaper, because as far as I know it’s damage is only done once per mob.
1 Weapon Dam - Probably the same value as 5 Circle/Kick/Flail/Spell dam.
Hand Dam, Dam - To difficult to quantify because of hidden game mechanics and multipliers but more than weapon damage.
Move Regen - 3x less valuable than 1ma regen. (Class dependent value)
Hp Regen - 4x less valuable than a 1ma regen. (Class dependent value)
5 moves - 12x less valuable than 5ma (Class dependent value)
5 hps - 20x less valuable than 5ma (Class dependent value)
5 Heal Bonus - 4x more valuable than 5ma
1 Dam Reduct - 2x more valuable than 5ma
Value of Saves -> Spell, Breath, Para, Petri (NOTE: Spell Saves is incredibly valuable but difficult to simulate)
Stat Points - STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS Arguably of equal value.
Max Stat_Points - Arguably double stat point value, however some MAX_STATS are more valuable than others.
Perm Spells - Need to crunch mana cost, benefit vs time duration.
Now… the difficult comparison between Damage and Mana Regen….
The combat time of my simulation was over a minute, which meant 1ma regen had lead to me acquiring an extra 1ma, or in damage terms 1/25th of a firewind… If a firewind does 200hp damage for 25ma, then that 1ma regen effectively did 8hp damage to the mob during the fight. This however is nonsense… as damage only operates during a fight, but mana regen is always operational… and unlimited mana is unlimited power. The link between mana and damage is completely subjective, dependent on your simulation… however based on the theory that 25ma regen per minute equals 200 damage per minute, it would appear that most forms of damage are worth more than mana regen, but in cases where damage is not multiplied, the value probably isn’t that far from similar. I suspect that a player who solos, may spend as little as 12.5% (1/8th) of there time actually fighting, meaning that the price of 1 weapon damage for instance, probably isn’t that far off the price of 1ma regen.
Originally I stated that all stats could be worked back to mana cost in order to calculate a fair price. But on second thoughts, I think it would be better to calculate them back to the base which is either “dam inflicted” or “mana” depending on what the stat is, then set a value for “dam” or “mana” and multiply them out based on their values. In some cases I think shop prices are fine, or more a less correct… other times I feel they are completely outside a margin of error which I think is acceptable. The values don’t all have to be different, you could set up groups, like the the tiers in gems… that works more a less ok.
You could cross check your results with common sense… the most expensive stats should be… DAM, HAND_DAM, SPELL_SAVES, MANA_REGEN, MAX_DEX etc
SPELL_SAVES is potentially the same value as DAM and HAND_DAM damage multipliers.
Simulating battle is somewhat lacking approach. Too much of details too easy to miss. First of all you are not taking in account that Sloth is heavily group-oriented, so worth of mana and mana regen in fight might be very high for a healer, due him not taking hits and doing damage directly. Another one - stab-splork-runs, which after heavily depending on damage would make good light of mv regen and mana regen. How are you fitting spells cast on player and mob in battle simulation, they are vaguely dependent on mana and mana regen, but most cast before fight, how attunement fits? But you are right about stats being not equal for different classes. And sometimes its actually not equal for different classorders in same prime. And sometime you would chose one stat over the other in just a different sets of equipment.
Imho calculating stat worth, or finding algorithm for it is very unlikely. So far its one at a time approach for every equipment slot, with finding breaks in items stat progression, figuring what equals what. I remember earlier on s3 we did simple things like finding how much 1 dex is worth ac wise, or comparing how much mr usually cost in mana points for different equipment parts.
Yet sorting drachma shop out has to be done someday, question is how. We could go for “10 most desirable items for
It seems that discussion is a bit derailed, is it ok?
Yeah, it’s only a guide Alris.
Theoretically you could crunch the numbers for all different sorts of simulations, solo, group, stab etc and average them to make it more accurate, but even then… it will still be only a guide…
What this does achieve though, is highlight stats that have grossly inaccurate values. If even that were addressed, it would be a victory.
I like the idea of creating a points system for eq. It’s the best way to sort it out.
Things would then need to be re-sorted, re-restricted and then players need to be communicated with clearly, and something needs to be worked out for exchanges and swaps. Should be easy for drachma eq, the value is on the item. I still see a massive amount of eq is old classo restricted… it’s been out of hand for years.
It’s a massive amount of work, but without it being done, the game becomes a bit of a mockery. At the moment you can work your butt off to get a lord clasp from the epic system, but you can easily buy a -2 ac temp potions at a shop and use almost as if they are unlimited. It’s just crazy unbalanced.
We haven’t even discussed issues with TEMP eq either… besides forges, what is the relevance of this eq in s4? There was a bit of chatter about in a group I was in recently… not sure if anyone saved the log…
If we talk about drachma items, then these could work:
Prime drachma
9x40 -0.6 +4hd +4hit -3dam reduction +max str
Non-prime drachma
9x40 -0.6 +3hd +3hit -2dam reduction +max str
Incidentally, the stats for non-prime drachma and prime ingame eq are the same, so they could be the same item, except given to monks for a quest forge. The quest can be prime, with the personal reward.
P.S. Alris, please break your new posts in smaller paragraphs, separated by empty lines. Thanks :)
Gorka wrote: We haven’t even discussed issues with TEMP eq either…
Whats an issue with temp eq aside from it being vastly under-powered?
Teron wrote: P.S. Alris, please break your new posts in smaller paragraphs, separated by empty lines
translate: you talk too much!
Don’t forget that game is all about reaching 40 avatar, not playing one. And while I disagree with that notion, i can accept that somewhat. Should the drachma item focus be 8x40 or 9x40 items, as ultimately top game equipment, or should it be best eq for the ride? That brings a question, what is a main purpose of drachma shops and drachma equipment?
Something forge/autoquest for prime and same thing bought with drachma for non-prime? Does not sound bad for me.
alris wrote: That brings a question, what is a main purpose of drachma shops and drachma equipment?
Yup. I can’t think of any principle to apply that would make sense. One thought I had is that perhaps elite damage gear that helps in splorking mobs (1 round kill) could be more heavily represented in the drachma eq, i.e. dam, spell dam, and hand dam. That’s kind of how it already is for monk I think, yah?
A bit off track from the topic again, but I tried to view drachma shop eq from player point of view.
I would consider buying item similar to one existing in the game if its within cost of 300 drachma. I think there was a ring of flaming serpents alike for 150 or so drachma? If the cost goes higher than that, it looks a bit overpriced. At higher levels I did regret slightly spending 600 drachma on sky king helm. While being best ac in the game, it frankly is not much difference from the roberts hat.
On other hand items which are one of a kind and heavily overpower ingame eq, could and should cost 500 or 1000+ drachma. Wasn’t there some +3 hand damage shield in the shop? And I mean things like extra damage or 1-2 handdamage, not measly .1 ac difference from in the game item (some thief or monk might bring numbers saying that in the end 1dam or hand dam is not very huge difference, but trust me, -13.1 is very small difference from -13.0 on ac).
juggleblood wrote: One thought I had is that perhaps elite damage gear that helps in splorking mobs (1 round kill) could be more heavily represented in the drachma eq, i.e. dam, spell dam, and hand dam. That’s kind of how it already is for monk I think, yah?
Seems damage reduction and mvreg are not much worth much as indepentant stats, but could be good sidekick addtions too.
I’m sure there’s plenty of inconsistencies like that because it’s such a big job to tackle in an organized fashion. One immortal tries to deal with drachma gear and then other immortals come behind and design new ingame equipment that affects the relative values of the drachma gear. There’s not much to be done about it, unless there is someone who wants to take it on as a project. It’s not the kind of thing that is done well piecemeal.
I guess a common system of value points per stat would solve that problem, because absolutely awesome items will be put in the drachma shop, while the weaker items will be ingame.
Then any imm can create new eq to be put ingame or to the shop, and it won’t interfere with the other items, because they are based on the same value assessments.
To think about it, with the eq point system, we could add an upgrade system, when players can upgrade their eq with separate individual buffs, which they could buy for a certain amount or forge, the difficulty of which depending on the value of the upgrade. e.g., if you want to add +dam to your eq, feel free to go and pop cps from a few 100m+ mobs or buy the dam token for drachma or for 20b+ exp, defined by the scaling system.
Imms would have to craft base or standard items, and players would customize the items themselves.
In fact, when I first heard of forging stuff, this is what I thought about.
And the beauty of it, is that it’s not that hard to come up with the point system, based on internal knowledge and player feedback on what they value more. Then again, you could compare the number of group mobs dead vs the number of splorks vs number of mobs that lived 1, 2 or 3 rounds.
You do realize that stat increments are not equal in value? Compare -.5 gauntlets to -.4 ones and then to -.3 and -.2 ones. How to assign cost to -.1 ac point?
Also, when you allow things like upgrade or constructing equipment with something point based, it turns in more or less what is avatar shop, but based on drachma, not experience.
You can calculate how much hps you lose for every -0.1ac, there’s a formula for that.
Also, in case you haven’t noticed, there’s ingame eq that allows us to get better stats and we are already discussing linear progression of eq 3x40-9x40 that can be forged, not just for drachma.
Upgrades can be forged/bought for drachma too, I don’t see any difference between forging/buying better item in a shop and buying/forging an upgrade that you need.
Of course, there need to be a few limits, but it works out nicely. Maybe I’ll write it up later.
We can go back to discussing the proposed 9x40 gear, and how drachma eq fits here.
You do have a point that after 9x40 the game is over after a year or two, when you buy the stuff. I don’t see any challenge for 9x40s, there needs to be more 9x40 content, maybe JB’s Mystica fix did the trick.
The 9x40 thing was just a hypothetical for discussion. I don’t have plans for such.
The takeaway for me from these discussions is that we could use more prime gear in the 2x40 range and then comparable or even better non-prime starting around 5x40.
So in this case for example I’m thinking a 2x40 monk prime sleeve that is about as good as sleeves of enlightenment. But maybe with damage reduction instead of hitroll.
Regarding your formulas, I don’t see any algorithm that would work. For one thing .1ac doesn’t have an objective value because its relative to whats available on that slot. I.e. a .6 ring is awesome cuz .5 is otherwise the max. But adding .1 ac to a .1 ring would be unimpressive in most cases.