Salutations,
Right now, the fighting balance is shifted to bare-handed side. It offers great skills such as deathgrip, strike, flurry and counterattack. Therefore even prime warriors often prefer to keep their Swords of Valor sheathed and use martial arts. Not speaking of other classes who lack parry, riposte and massive critical hit.
I am not saying weapons aren’t used at all. It is used as instruments when the situation requires so. Such as prime clerics use dark maces against undead, demons and ether. Everyone has to use spiritual hammers against ether. Prime warrior unsheath their swords when it comes to tanking. Etc.
But still fists are superior.
Not sure, maybe it works as intended, but for me it’s weird to see prime warriors using their fists as well as stashes of Axes of Dwarvish Lords collecting dust at the Lord Moonglum’s shop.
Maybe it’s time to buff fighting with weapon?
Here are some things that could be done:
Make parry everyone skill instead of prime(with lower % than prime warriors, of course, and keep riposte prime warrior only). It’ll make weapons used in solo much more frequently.
Add dual-wielding. If one can put weapon in other hand instead of shield and it’ll add him 2-3 attacks, he’ll definitely consider using it instead of fists.
p.s. Even if someone will disagree with initial thesis that fists are superior to weapon, it doesnt mean dual-wielding shouldn’t be added. As it would be great feature.
Hung’s premise is that “Bare handed fighting is better than swords.”
I honestly don’t know if this is the case all the way through the journey of being a warrior, but it is certainly a fact for Gorka. I currently do more damage playing monk style. (Tested in Coliseum)
Although I agree that in a logical sense swords generally should be doing more damage than bare handed attacks… Clearly it’s not the first thing in Sloth not to make sense, and if that is the justification to change something, then certainly we are about to open Pandora’s box…
Warrior skills such as crit hits, 3 attacks, second wind (prime) etc all complement a monk’s damage, but nothing from the monk class complements a warrior’s damage when fighting with a sword. This makes the monk class dominant… and positions monk bias.
In my opinion, sword damage just can’t compete with hand damage especially at low levels. There are 39 hand dam items in game, and 13 weapon dam items (most hard forges, drachma or high restricted).
A level 39 non prime monk can fairly easily scrap together 9 hand dam. Of the 13 weapon dam items in game, only 2 (same slot btw) are available to warriors at levels less than level 40. Both only offer 1 weapon dam in a slot where there is an easy regular dam item’s available.
Hung’s premise is not an opinion, I think it’s a fact, from my experience so far. Does it need changing, well it’s not my position to say, but if I wanted too, I’d add weapon dam items, and beef the swordsmanship skill for lower levels.
I would love to use a sword, but I simply won’t until it works out better for me.
I believe the hand dam cap is 33 (but unobtainable) and the warrior weapon dam cap is 25 (but obtainable). Most of the weapon damage cap has to be purchased at 9x40 - which means for lower levels most warriors are naturally positioned to play in a non-prime style. Yes, this is a pity…
Rofl!
Quote: If one can put weapon in other hand instead of shield and it’ll add him 2-3 attacks…
On average, accounting properly for crit and massive crit, a top tier swordsman deals 100 damage per hit. Over the course of a minute, your proposed adjustment is like 13-20 free firewinds.
While you’re adjusting things, make sure to give mages an extra 400 mana regen and ‘second wind’ so they can keep up!
A less game-breaking ‘fix’, (if one is needed), would be improving broadside or flail. Monkstyle is already less passive damage than a swordsman. It only edges ahead because strike is so superior to broadside/flail.
Quote: In my opinion, sword damage just can’t compete with hand damage especially at low levels. There are 39 hand dam items in game, and 13 weapon dam items (most hard forges, drachma or high restricted).
As early as newbatia, you can wield an enchanted sharpened 2-handed ogre claymore that deals 4d5 +4 damage. Besides it’s huge damage output, it also gets bonus attacks against mobs that flee!
You won’t start dealing similar damage unarmed combat until you have 40 monk and 2000ish drachma. A max level monk needs +9 handdam before he equalizes with the claymore. He’ll probably have far worse AC, and the swordsman could always wear additional +dam eq.
Maybe you’re wielding the wrong weapon? Josiah didn’t start fighting unarmed until around 4x40. He did plan to go that route from the beginning, so no drachma was wasted…
Josiah wrote:
Quote: In my opinion, sword damage just can’t compete with hand damage especially at low levels. There are 39 hand dam items in game, and 13 weapon dam items (most hard forges, drachma or high restricted).
As early as newbatia, you can wield an enchanted sharpened 2-handed ogre claymore that deals 4d5 +4 damage. Besides it’s huge damage output, it also gets bonus attacks against mobs that flee!
You won’t start dealing similar damage unarmed combat until you have 40 monk and 2000ish drachma. A max level monk needs +9 handdam before he equalizes with the claymore. He’ll probably have far worse AC, and the swordsman could always wear additional +dam eq.
Maybe you’re wielding the wrong weapon? Josiah didn’t start fighting unarmed until around 4x40. He did plan to go that route from the beginning, so no drachma was wasted…
I need to look into what your saying more and test some things… but surely it’s strange that a valker can use a weapon that’s almost as elite as 9x40 weapon from an early onset? Where is the progression? Also there are no 3x40 swords or drachma swords, I have no idea why. A mage wearing pyjamas wearing an axe of the dwarvish lords has a better weapon than a warrior… But this is not an issue, since no one chooses this item anyway! It all seems a little odd. An average 40 Monk should be able to get 15+ hand dam together fairly easy… I don’t think the complaint is about “poor warriors” I mean we have guys running around at a temp -15… I think it’s more the giggle that hands are better than swords… and that somehow a monk wearing cloth can beat a tin can in melee.
Totally agree on broadside/flail, for me on regular coliseum mobs broadside does 3% damage while my free strike will do 10%… and I also don’t have to stand up all the time. Those warrior weapon damage bracers also need an adjustment the restricts and prices are laughable compared to the similar monk bracers… not to mention it’s possible to cap weapon dam without them AND get better ac.
Catch me in game if you see me, and give me some tips.
Josiah,
Ok, weapons provide bigger(not significally though) passive damage than fists. That is definitely plus for weapons. However let’s see pluses of martial arts:
- Defense skill(counterattack) which doesn’t have weapons’ counterpart for non-prime warriors.
- Fight starter(deathgrip) which is much better than charge.
- Active damage(strike) which is significally better than broadside or flail.
So overally fists are better than swords even if they lose in passive damage.
For me the counterattack itself is enough to use fists on my bard and necro. If there was comparable non-warrior prime defense skill I’d switch to weapon.
p.s. There are countless ways to balance dual-wielding so it’ll not become overpower.
Quote: surely it’s strange that a valker can use a weapon that’s almost as elite as 9x40 weapon from an early onset? Where is the progression?
Well, the sword I quoted is a twink weapon… it isn’t available to real newbies. It pops on a group mob in a rarely visited area. To reach its peak potential it must be enchanted by a level 25 mage, and sharpened by a level 25 avatar, at a cost of 3 million gold.
A true newbie gets the intended progression by using whatever weapons they find, rather than going straight for the best.
You’ll find many games allow extra power for experienced players, either by player knowledge or via New Game+ mechanics.
Josiah wrote: Well, the sword I quoted is a twink weapon… it isn’t available to real newbies. It pops on a group mob in a rarely visited area. To reach its peak potential it must be enchanted by a level 25 mage, and sharpened by a level 25 avatar, at a cost of 3 million gold.
I’ve got one of those that I carry around on Vk. It’s enchanted but not sharpened. It’s incredibly fun to massacre all the time as a level 20 while wearing all armor gear. But from an overall xp/run perspective I find it nearly identical to using a mithril axe with shield.
@Gorka, I don’t think we’ll see comprehensive attempts to balance warriors’ weapdam against monks’ handdam, because warrior class in sloth is geared towards defense where monk is geared toward offense. The two classes complement each other nicely. I’m glad that the monk class has developed to the point that it has and I dig the symbiosis of the two.
That being said, I will keep your thoughts in mind the next I build a zone and am designing eq and make sure to throw a bone to weapdam.
Thanks JB, at lower levels, that was probably all it needed! I understand your premise about warriors being defensive and monks being offensive as well.
With the current weapon dam cap quite attainable at high levels, any adding of weapon dam items to new slots will make the drachma weapon dam items (particularly the bracers) seem even more ridiculous than they already are. If your purpose is just to make the item useful for lowbies, I’d recommend making it an item for which there is currently already a better weapon dam item available at later levels, this way the item is only useful for lowbies. Maybe it should also be prime restricted - otherwise we have every other class needing the item as well and the balance of the game gets shifted as effectively, everyone would be made more powerful.
I already know about how you and some other imms feel about the 3 x 40 axe which doesn’t deathblow and broadside. Sure it’s not a sword… but from my point of view I would just like to know if it is going to get changed or not, as I would seriously consider picking it if it was. I’d just like to know where I stand.
A coder could look at broadside? Given it’s not going to get used much by avatars, maybe it should be dropped to valk levels, which would encourage warriors to broadside instead of strike. This would encourage less crossover of warriors playing monk style because of necessity, and make it more a choice.
I disagree with Yang and agree with Josiah, mostly.
Weapon damage is ok passive damage, but you can’t rely on it to solo mobs. It’s good to have in tank/solo mode, but that’s that, you can’t kill mobs with wd unless you want to chop ogres/chasm forever. Warriors can use pets/blast to do damage and be in a weapon dam set. That’s what I have been doing, because i went the ac/wd route and it was ok, very different from the hd route. So not all warriors pick hd.
Also, there is a parry-like skill for non-prime warriors, and it’s dodge. It works regardless of using a weapon, even though it works 1/3.5 of the time and only for 2-4 rounds and even then, you have to waste an attack on it. It’s still useful for doing a hard-hitting [Lyme] mob that drops in 2 rounds, though.
Yes, fixing broadside and/or adding flail damage could improve the gameplay for warriors.
What could also improve it is to add more +weap dam items, because:
in ac I have 9 weapon damage from high-end eq and a clasp
in my weap dam set I add +1 weap dam from eq, +2 wd from a rune, and +5 raw damage from regular items.
If I had the -0.6 gaunts, I’d swap +5wd devilskin gaunts, but still, the dam difference between ac and dam is very little, compared to switching to a hd set.
Personally, I’d love to see warriors doing more weapon damage in groups at the cost of their ac by:
removing the debuff on berserk, which removes crit hits
adding unique +wd items with ac handicap would help
adding 1-2 more attacks with dual wield in exchange of a shield
fixing broadside and/or adding more dam to flail
Obviously, with this passive damage, dd warriors need to be using an active skill, too, otherwise they’ll be either blasting or doing nothing (broadside sucks, flail doesn’t compare to strike for damage even if maxed).
Taron, thanks for your opinion.
I agree that prime warriors have more than enough reasons to use swords. Of course, the situation could be made even better by introducing dual-wielding, adding more wd items, impoving flail and broadside, etc.
However what about non-prime warriors? Especially bards and necros. I think it is wrong that they have no choice but to fight with bare-hands. And Axes of Dwarvish Lords keep collecting dust…
Why do you think that everyone has to fight with bare hands?
Wind does more damage, then the strike damage you might do (or you might miss). x1.5 winds per round is nothing to sneeze at.
Barehanded damage is for when you either splork a thin mob (but even then, wind does more damage, than a strike w/o capped hd), or when you aren’t taking any damage. Anything in between, thicker, and still doing average damage, and you need to kill the mob faster, than to chop it with your bare hands.
In groups, however, barehanded fighting goes a long way, if you are also healing. All you need is a regular hd set, no drachma spent. In this regard, hd set definitely wins over a wd set. But then, you’d have to replace most of your heal eq with hd eq.
Taron,
I think that counterattack is so amazing skill(esp. for bard or necro) that even if I plan to fight in full ac using stab and blast, even then I’ll fight bare-handed. Only because of the counterattack skill(maybe empowering it with ogham psalms).
Basically I complain about two separate things:
Weapon fighting does too low damage.
Non-prime warriors lack any weapon fighting defense skill.
And Axes of Dwarvish Lords keep collecting dust…
Warriors don’t use tri40 axe, because the warrior prime sword, used with the 6x40 clasp, is just a few damage points lower, then the Axe. And you can get -0.1ac and 40hps from two of the tri40 items. Guess what warriors choose.
Add a multiplier to the Axe and I’ll consider taking it (and yes, it has to deathblow and broadside, too, just like the double-bladed axe from the maws can deathblow and slash).
Just blathering ideas here…upgrade swords from valor, such as:
sword of redemption 4d5+2+3, warrior prime 40 + avatar 5
sword of carnage 4d5+4+1, warrior prime 40 + avatar 20
…or maybe nonprime? I guess warrior prime should have a supreme sword aye? Maybe make dwarvish axe the supreme warrior weapon? (and yes i agree it must gut and riposte)
Just thoughts. I agree it’s a niche that could be flushed out better.
Gorka wrote: I already know about how you and some other imms feel about the 3 x 40 axe which doesn’t deathblow and broadside. Sure it’s not a sword… but from my point of view I would just like to know if it is going to get changed or not, as I would seriously consider picking it if it was. I’d just like to know where I stand.
A coder could look at broadside? Given it’s not going to get used much by avatars, maybe it should be dropped to valk levels, which would encourage warriors to broadside instead of strike. This would encourage less crossover of warriors playing monk style because of necessity, and make it more a choice.
I vote in favor of fixing axe. I haven’t asked the committee tho, will do that. Regarding broadside, I concur. Also noobie mages should have a mirror. And broadside should knock people down about half as much. Just my opinion tho.
*Axe of Dwarvish Lords will now broadside, riposte, deathblow just like sword.
Thanks, JB!
Some math on valor vs axe:
valor with clasp is 5d5 1 2
axe is 6d5 5 0 +dex
avg for valor is 2+(5+25)/2=17
avg for axe is (6+30)/2=18
I don’t see how it’s worth it for warriors to pick 1 dam, unless they want to get the +dex. But then, there are +2dex +hpr laces, which are more useful for a tank. Warriors already have ok hitroll, so the value of +5hitroll is diminished.
So, right now, it seems like the tri40 axe is for non-wa primes, who can’t take the valor sword. Or for tri40 warriors, who are expected to exchange the axe for something else at 6x40.
So:
I agree that valor could be upgraded with 40s (6x40, 7x40, 8x40, 9x40) and avatar levels, e.g. add +hit for every 40 and +1dam for every 10 avatar levels (JB, you’ve actually lowered damage for 20av in your post)
the tri40 axe could be made the ultimate weapon, but then it’d have to radically outpower the wa prime sword, if we want warriors to use the axe
Would it make sense to have the tri40axe more powerful, than the wa prime weapon?
I say, perhaps, because we already have +ma prime light outpowered by a 4x40 quest item, and prime eq can serve as a powerup, not as the ultimate upgrade.
If the axe does become as powerful, maybe bards or necros start using it.
Thanks for the change JB!
I’m excited! I will make this my first 3x40 choice, however I do expect to exchange the axe at 6x40 or there abouts because at around this point, I sense I will begin to take on Taron’s sentiments. There is an AC sacrifice in taking the axe, but I don’t expect I will be tanking before 6x40. I feel the change to axe also helps address the lowbie warrior weapon dam issue, so I will ride that wave and exchange afterwards, but I’m stoked about the change. Thank you.
Thanks JB for fixing the axe!
However that string is quite explanative why I wont switch to the new axe on my bard:
*You quickly duck aside and use an evil death knight’s strength against him in a brutal
counterattack!*
I’ve made some statistics gathering scripts to see how often counterattack does actually works. And here are preliminary results:
Total fighting rounds: 114
Total incoming attacks: 267
Total counterattacks: 37
Counterattacks per round: 37/114 = ~32%
Counterattacks per incoming attacks: 37/267 = ~14%
So basically counterattack works average every third round or every sixth incoming attack. And that is without oghams which is supposed to empower it even more.
So the counterattack itself is enough reason for my bard to choose bare-handed fighting (btw, by bare-handed I didnt mean full monk set, but only not using a weapon).
Previously it had been said that the weapon fighting is supposed to be more defensive, while fists are more offensive. So far is works only for the prime warriors. For non-primes fists are more defensive.
Therefore I propose to fix it once and for all by introducing new non prime warrior skill deflection, that’ll add small chance of blocking incoming blow with a weapon. I propose it to work following way:
- It works only when holding a weapon.
- It is passive(i.e. it doesn’t require to be explicity turned on unlike counterattack).
- It doesn’t return any damage back to the attacker.
- It works on ether when wielding hammer or dark mace.
- It is turned off when parry is turned on(sorry, dear warriors, you’re powerful enough already).
- The success rate is close to the counterattack, maybe a bit higher.
So based on this post I’m seeing the following suggestions:
Make parry non-prime and less effective for non-primes (or make new skill)
Dual-wielding
Increase the weapon damage cap to be closer to the hand damage cap
Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)
Better fight-starter for warriors
A couple other things that no one has mentioned:
It seems logical to me that players should fight better as warrior or monk depending on their class order.
The weapon slot could be made more valuable. A dark mace isn’t just an ether weapon, it also procs, provides mana regen, and heal bonus at high levels. We could add more weapons or weapon clasps with procs and/or bonuses. There could be more runes allowed on the weapon slot. Would it change a bard’s behavior if there was a weapon or weapon clasp that increased charisma, number of song targets, or song duration? How about if there was a weapon that worked like a peri and healed after dealing a particular amount of damage?
Are you an immortal or a player teker, I’m confused… why are you thinking like us? :lol:
Keep up the good work… by the way, discovered the other day that my kick dam was about the same as my broadside damage… so yeah… probably not what anyone intended.
Careful about asking for ideas around here, we might drown you in our dreams. Do what you think is right. :)
Well, frankly I think charisma is quite useless even for my bard. As I use songs that depends on it(cry of avatars and reign of confusion) rarely. And even when I do my ~20 charisma is more than enough. Groups arent big these days so I easily affect all followers with my gods of war. So, no, I wont switch to a bard weapon.
Btw, maybe necromancer prime analogue to dark mace that procs vampiric touch may be a good idea to inspire more people play necros.
Anyway introducing more weapons wont solve problem of noone taking Axe of Dwarvish Lords. Unless it’ll be the one added proposed healing-like-peri proc. New weapon clasps/runes might also help. However it really depends on what it’ll offer.
For my bard I find fists ideal solution for all situation. It is good for groups, as I do decent damage with them. And it is good for solo, as counterattack provides me additional protection even when I fight in ac with followers. I want to take the axe, however it wouldn’t be good idea.
So I brought up this list to the other imms and the feedback I got was:
The following list isn’t happening:
Make parry non-prime and less effective for non-primes (or make new skill)
Dual-wielding
The following list probably isn’t happening:
- Better fight-starter for warriors
The following list could happen:
Increase the weapon damage cap to be closer to the hand damage cap
Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)
1st Question: Based on this - is there really any fix that would make a bard or other non-warrior/non-monk prime class use a weapon when soloing? Or is the benefit from counterattack just too great to change from bare handed?
I’ve looked at the code for kick, broadside, and strike. The biggest difference right now is that strike benefits from a bunch of potential bonuses that the other two do not. I’m thinking that kick will probably be left alone since it’s a low level skill but that broadside should be improved to include many of the same types of bonuses that strike benefits from.
2nd Question: How does flail perform? I’ve taken a high level look at it and it seems to start with the weapon damage and includes some bonuses but not as many as strike.
Thanks for you efforts, Teker.
I hope other bards will also share their opinions in this thread.
I would like to demonstrate exact situation with my bard.
This is my solo eqset that is mix of ac, charisma and hand dam gear:
You are using:
ring ribbon attached to it)
attached to it)
It has only 3 monk items(Gauntlets of Thunder, banded leather sleeves and ebony sash), each giving +2 hd.
Such eq set gives me following score:
Kid %s (level: 40)
Your levels: Ba: 40 Dr: 40 Cl: 40 Ne: 40 Mo: 40 Wa: 32 Ma: 21 Th: 20 Av: 8
You are 27 years, 11 months, 1 day old.
You are a citizen of Settlestone.
You are a devout worshipper of Ming.
You spread goodness and joy everywhere you go.
You have visited most of this area.
You’ve seen 57.1% of the world.
You have (940/940+96) hit, (613/613+64) mana and (396/396+44) movement points.
Your armor class is -8.5.
You have +9 to hit, +11 on damage and up to 2 attacks.
You have 0 gold coins.
You have three hundred and sixty-seven drachma.
You have 85361 honor.
You have 565269538 unused experience points.
You have been playing for 35 days, 4 hours, 51 minutes.
You are a member of Legends.
You are well-attuned to the healing stratum.
Str: 18[14], Int: 17[17], Wis: 18[18], Dex: 18[18], Con: 16[16] (87[83])
You are resting.
Your song can affect as many as twelve people.
The following bonuses affect you:
Damage Red. : 53% ( 7) [|||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
Charisma : 79% ( 19) [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
Hand Damage : 28% ( 6) [|||||||||||||| ]
That is without glamour(which increates charisma) and bless/grace/peri’s blessing(which increates hitroll).
Let’s calculate how many passive damage per round I could make.
One hit will do 7.5(I heard somewhere non-prime monks base damage is 3d4) + 11(damage in score) + 10(gods of war) = 28.5
I can do 3 hits per round(double attack + flurry).
So overall round damage is 85.5
Now let’s say I switch to axe.
Then one blow will make 17.5(average of 5d6) + 5(damage left without hand dam) + 10(gods of war) = 32.5
I could do 2 blows per round(no flurry).
So overall round damage is 65.
I.e. even passive damage is significantly higher with fists for my character.
Of course, replacing monk items with ac ones will give me like -.8ac. However the counterattack compensates that ac loss with vengeance. Btw, I’ve tested it with oghams on and the rate per round raised up to ~38%.
So I dont see me switching to the axe in the nearly future even if broadside will be improved.
On the other hand even now single blow of axe does more than single hit. Therefore I may switch to it in the very distance future. After gaining triple attack, haste and avatar attack. After reaching 9x40 and buying all 10 weapon dam points from the avatar shop. After forging of demonskin gaunts and getting all weapon dam runes(all of them are tier 3). Then maybe axe will become better choice.
p.s. While there, I ask the administration to review the following drachma item:
Serpentskin Bracer
-0.4 WeaponDam 2, Hpr 2
Drachma [770]
I dont know a single player who purchased it even among the dedicated swordsmen. It definitely doesnt worth it’s drachma.
Good day Lord Teker,
To simply put -
The monk’s ability to strike harder factors in hand damage. The more hand damage a player obtains, the more painful the strike skill is. On the plus side, ‘hand damage’ also improves their ability to deal more damage in a combat round. All this without the fuss of looking for a weapon.
This is the “universal answer” every player would go for since going without a weapon also allows you to play with monk goodies such as the counter attack/dodge etc.
So to answer your first question - there is no fix to go the no brainer route like above. It is efficient, simple and effective. Pretty much how the class works naturally. To compliment the difference, I would agree to follow the same concept as above. Warriors having the option to include their weapon_bonus to their skills such as : broadside, flail etc. Still though, I cannot see how this would influence a player’s choice in change.
On a different note, there are very little weapon bonus goodies. A player this route would need to rely heavily on gems, which are pretty much non-existent, to only hit a capacity of barely 18% (output in raw ratio) of what a monk concept can offer head to toe. Since gem rates will not change, maybe we can start looking at weapon_bonus scale or perhaps the long much anticipated wait - bonus_weapon_bonus.
Old traditional warrior gear with top AC comes either with a penalty or nothing at all. Maybe we could look into complimenting these too.
Kind regards,
Dr
Another solution had been offered on our telegram chat. The idea is to introduce mobs that are vulnerable to weapons(like there are already mobs that are vulnerable to light, fire, etc…). If there will be plenty of such mobs and if killing it will be worthwhile, then players of all classes will have to carry weapons with them.
teker wrote: The following list isn’t happening:
Make parry non-prime and less effective for non-primes (or make new skill)
Dual-wielding
Good! And if the mages all want second wind, then I want frostbolt :lol:
teker wrote: The following list probably isn’t happening:
- Better fight-starter for warriors
How about changing charge to a foot charge… just like in the movies, think Braveheart or Gladiator.. but without having to be on horseback. A bit of a buff for the first round. Charge is already an existing skill and useful for newbies, it is also an opener, unfortunately the game doesn’t really use mounts past valk, mostly because mounts are completely unpractical for groups and keep wandering off. Also mounts are impractical with many other game skills. Maybe a small change to charge, disregarding the horseback element, and the problem is solved.
teker wrote: The following list could happen:
Increase the weapon damage cap to be closer to the hand damage cap
Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)
Teker, increasing the cap a little probably needs to happen… but this doesn’t address the problem. I am 1x40 and my monk side is about 20% more powerful than my warrior side. Next 40, my monk side gets another 5 hand dam and my warrior side gets nothing. All that hand dam adds to grip, strike, flurry and counterattack. The divide is only getting worse. The real issue with warrior is the beginning, the monks are completely dope. Changing to caps only helps avatars. There is not a lot wrong with avatar warriors… checkout stun…
teker wrote:
- Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)
Yes please! Could you make this maybe automatic as part of warrior combat? Like I don’t like the idea of broadside being “strike” for warriors. I like the riposte/crit hits concept. I don’t like the idea of warrior skills mimicking monk, but they do need to be useful.
Hung wrote: Serpentskin Bracer
-0.4 WeaponDam 2, Hpr 2
Drachma [770]
JB has alluded to creating a new warrior bracer, given the stat he suggested for it and how it compares with this… this item will probably have to change anyway. I’d suggest at least -0.5 and more MVR or HPR or HP’s with a price adjustment as you see fit. Please keep in mind, warriors are going to want 2, so the price needs to reflect that, like the monk bracer.
Just to reiterate my main concern about any changes… I don’t like the idea of warriors becoming too much like monks, if anything I want to celebrate in the prime differences. I don’t really want weapon dam to become like handdam - that’s the monk struggle, and yes we need to see more low level weapon dam eq in game, but I think the easiest way to address the problem is actually changes to the swordsmanship skill.
If you are looking to be creative, I like the idea of bashing with my shield, or headbutting with my helmet automatically (like riposte), or I like the idea of having different styles of swordsmanship… more aggressive which may effect my defenses, or more defensive which may decrease my offenses.
Looking forward to seeing whats coming, and think the decisions seem on track so far. If you want to see the difference between me fighting as warrior with sword of valor vs hand dam style catch me in game. It’s quite a large gap and it’s going to get worse next level!
Teker, thanks for looking into the fighters.
To answer your questions:
1.Personally, when I play a solo bard, I use dodge, not counter, so my weapon needs +2 charisma (to compensate for the dagger of dreams), have high damage dice and maybe a proc or +1-2mana regen.
If I were making a choice to get a hd set for grouping, only a weapon with significant damage or +2-3persons affected -5-10% song cost would keep me from doing it.
Like Yang said, in groups few songs need charisma and if they do, it happens rarely.
If you want bards to go full charisma, keep their +charisma weapons on, and buy +bonus-charisma eq, make charisma boost the number of ppl affected by the bard and song effect, such as:
10 charisma: gods of war is 9 damage, 0 ppl bonus
12 charisma: gods of war is 10 damage, 0 ppl bonus
14 charisma: gods of war is 11 damage, 1 ppl bonus
16 charisma: gods of war is 12 damage, 1 ppl bonus
18 charisma: gods of war is 13 damage, 2 ppl bonus
20 charisma: gods of war is 14 damage, 2 ppl bonus (current cap at 1x40)
etc
See more here.
of ppl affected matters, because in large groups sometimes a bard isn’t enough and he can’t do anything, other than leveling to 9x40 to use his instruments, to affect more ppl. Maybe more +ppl bonus/-mana cost% eq would help here.#
As for necros, same deal about solo: +high damage dice,+mr and damage procs.
Some druids pick the staff of the elders - +2mr fireball proc - as tri40 eq. Try to emulate this one.
Actually back in the days, weapons with procs were prized posessions, such as Raven’s Fire or even the crimson rapier. These days, it’s more of a toy, because a strike is better than any random proc, and mostly, these weapons have lower weapon dice, so doesn’t really boost damage noticeably, compared to prime or tri40 weapons.
The only few damage proc weapons that are worthy are the Kladenetz blade (4d4 +2 +2 and a massive proc) and the a bone hilted tempered sword: high damage of 3d5 +2 +2 and a burning debuff with a duration. Other weapons include the black kris of power and the golden dagger of the black thieves, because the damn/blind on stab. Maybe necro weapons that debuff with weaken and crimson scourge can work: the spear of pestilence is a nice weapon name with +uc, maybe you could add these procs to it.
tldr; make awesome procs for weapons with high damage dice for ppl to use them or they’ll go with tri40 weapons or barehanded.
- When capped at 60, flail does about 50-120 damage and is less, than a strike with hand dam (also note that I get an extra attack, if I go bare-handed, as Kung has demonstrated above).
More often, than not, flail does about 60-80 damage and is just a minimal addition to tank damage. I’m simply using it, because there sometimes is nothing else to do, because I’m either singing or out of mana or saving mana for heals.
When I change to my wd mode (paradoxically, I have 40 flail in it, because I use the +wd rune on the saurian sleeves), flail does less, as far as I can tell, so rarely bother with it.
Broadside does even less damage, doesn’t have +stat eq and doesn’t work on 5m+ mobs. It’s as useless as it gets, except I use broadside on small mobs, when I don’t want to do area damage on death in the elemental school.
The way I see it about strike/flail/weap damage:
there is little weap dam items for warriors to grow in damage, compared to hand damage
broadside/flail don’t scale with levels, like strike does (7av master strike)
therefore, broadside/flail are rarely used for damage
anything but capped weapon damage doesn’t compensate for flurry, it’s just a great monk skill.
So, it looks like broadside and flail need major boosts in damage to be used for damage dealing warriors for real, maybe multiply weap dam for it, so warriors would consider switching to wd instead of going barehanded.
Also, I disagree that an addition to damage only has to be passive: we already have riposte and massive crit hit Warriors do need an active skill or two they can choose to use in fights, otherwise weapon damage modes will be boring. Shieldbash for tanks?
Though, practically, what if flail at its current state becomes a toggleable skill that gets added at the end of the round and doesn’t create any lag? Then broadside could be the go-to skill for active offense.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Seems the main topic got so way off!
Stop getting distracted people.
Here’s a little insight also since Gorka asked -
Warrior weapon_bonus caps at 25.
You have +3 weapon_bonus non-drachma items below Avatar 1. (3/25)
You have +5 weapon_bonus from a 63 mil coins forge for Avatar 10. (8/25) <– Good luck finding coins for the forge!
You have +10 weapon_bonus from 100B exp and 100 mil coins at 9x40. (18/25) <– Good luck reaching 9x40!
And the best part :
- You have +8 weapon_bonus from a total of 4 runes. (26/25) <– Good luck finding these 20 gems!
Not sure which comes first - reaching 9x40 or finding 20 weapon_bonus gems. According to Gorka, reaching 5x40 got him a gem.
Let’s say a warrior wants to make life ’easier’ :
a) Spend 740 drachma on +2 weapon_bonus (Relic)
b) Spend 770 drachma on +2 weapon_bonus (Bracer)
c) Spend 770 drachma on +2 weapon_bonus for your 2nd (Bracer)
Obtain 1) and 2).
Result : 14/25
Damn, after all the writing, I almost feel sorry for the class. Difficulty 10/10.
Oh hello Monk class - 15 hand_dam all below 40 monk. Yolo boys, go monk. Difficulty 1/10.
Regards,
Dr
Thanks for the summary about weapon dam, Dr.
The thing is, we not only need +weap dam ingame and quest items, but also a fixed broadside/flail, and that’s what these posts are about.
Personally, I think that the above and dual wield that grants 1 attack would prevent warriors from going bare-handed. It’d also give a choice to other groupies (bards/necros/etc): forego wearing a shield or stick to hand damage.
I don’t really like much the idea of dual wield, but admit without an extra attack from dual wield, it will probably be impossible for me to make up the damage I can do barehanded with flurry.
I think the reality is that monk damage is so far ahead, I don’t think a warrior at my levels can catch it, even with broadside fixed. I’m not saying that warrior damage should equal monk damage… but players are going to still do monk probably because of flurry at my levels.
To conclude,
I do not think any sort of light change towards warrior skills would do any good in regards to topic. So hard to compare the two. One can actually just accept the fact you should do well monk style, embrace the ki, and move on?
I do however would like to think our Gods who govern us hear our plea and condone our ideas towards the weapon_bonus for a warrior’s growth spurt in general. This would also have some impact towards our other classes who stray to such meditative and pious ways. We have highlighted the massive void in weapon_bonus, the severe difficulty and ease of other goodly Sloth monk ways.
Could I ask also Teker since you have been our listening ear and a dear shoulder - could we see light towards bonus_weapon_bonus like the many other skills that has enjoyed this attribute?
Muchas Gracias!
Dr
As we seem to have another round of sharing opinions I would like to propose yet another idea. Which is about introducing new weapon clasp that heals like peri.
Counterattack works at average every third round. Average mob attack is 100 hps. So counterattack helps to save about 33hps per round.
Therefore if the new clasp will heal like 30 hps per round(it’s less than 33, but clasp doesnt need to be activated unlike the counterattack), then using a weapon will become much worthwhile again.
Alternative approach is a vampiric clasp that does say 1d5 damage per each blow and transfers that damage to the weapon wielder.
Warrior primes will attach those clasps on their swords. While non-primes will attach it on the Axes of Dwarvish Lords.
And Lord Moonglum will finally stop walking around with long face and cursing someone who sold him stack of those axes.
p.s. Of course, such clasp will make tassle of the guardian obsolete. However the tassle could become part of some greater forge. I.e. -.4ac +2wd boots.
We’re currently discussing what to try to do to make things more even. One of the things for sure would be to include some of the missing bonuses in warrior skills and to make them improve with warrior levels. I looked in the code and it appears that bonus weapon damage has been coded but not used. It would be trivial to change the weapon damage cap and that’s something we should do as well, but we need to discuss numbers.
To finally improve things, it’ll be up to the builders to add more items that add to weapon damage. It sounds like many of these need to be lower level.
Let me ask this also: Why do people play warriors if the weapon damage is so low? What compensates for that to make them fun to play? Or are all the warriors just running around bare-handed?
How big of a ***** storm would there be if we revised monk damage down if it falls later in the class order?
I’d say the monk style thing is popular and fun and not overpowered. Nerfing it according to class placement is going to make people angry.
I’m not convinced we need to balance weapdam as warriors already get crit and massive critical hit to boost their melee damage. Would having a wider variety of weapons that scale with avatar levels help the issue?
People play warriors because of parry & riposte which are probably best defense skills. People play warriors because of second wind which is considered by some as best prime skill ever. Finally people play warriors because of hp & hpregen bonus, ac bonus and ability to make ac lower than -11.
As JB previously said, weapon fighting is supposed to be more defensive style, while fists are more offensive. So far it is true only for prime warriors. Therefore my suggestions were aimed to make it true for non-primes as well. I dont think weapon fighting should compete with martial arts in damage. However there is an issue with weapon dam growth being very non-linear(as most of it comes from avatar shop and tier 3 gems). While the hand dam grows pretty linear(as most of it comes from ordinary eq).
About the last question. Isn’t there a hand damage cap based on monk in class order already? Anyway, many of us will become very sad if one day they’ll find out that their hits and strikes dont do as much damage as before.
Good Morning!
Game concept and approach has changed on various occassions over the so many years.
One of the more impactful and direct influence over the change we see today has been the Coliseum.
Your typical warrior looking for the best armor out there as he should, would find things like (-spellbonus/-damage/-hit/-stat/-hp/-mana) very anti-coliseum. The alternative route is to then embrace their weapon bonus bloodrage, which is not very lowbie friendly coupled with an astounding difficulty (at this current game phase). Solid +dam items are high thief restricted, which many players put way behind their class order if you’re not a thief prime.
Monk class in general enjoys more damage compared to your conventional old school +dam slots in return for lower AC. Couple that up with a jive of warrior and monk utilities and you have a picture perfect Gladiator for the Coliseum.
On this basis, I do not think we should be looking at a monk revision. It is simply but a phase of what the game offers.
Moving on -
The current weapon damage cap is not at all low. I have seen the various output in a growing warrior trying to achieve the cap and I can almost say that the end result is truly impressive. However, fullfilling this cap is a daunting task. I firmly believe works are under way to ease the pain. One very simple way to “increase” the cap is to actually just allow bonus_weapon_bonus to have a play. Maybe that can be in works too nudge
What Hung has mentioned pretty much sums up why anyone would want to play the prime.
On the plus side, I do agree that the class deserves a bump in direct relation with skill to weapon bonus. This should aid a warrior’s growth in its most cohesive nature, even out of the Coliseum.
Thanks for hearing us out!
Regards,
Dr
May i suggest… adding bonus weapon damage at the same levels you get heal bonus or bonus spell damage from avvie levels for warriors, and maybe bonus hand damage for monks at same levels? Both only for primes. Could also just extend the swordsmanship and/or barehanded still to classo..
Warriors damage sucks ..always had. i leveled before pit etc… so was spending all day killing 200 k ish mobs.. waiting for groups..
Now.. if i redid it.. would ignore ac, since potions can easily outdo anything. Same with damage… potions boost easily. And, you can kill in pit all day for them, with no risk of exp loss..
Most warriors.. hell even clerics.. now level usuing monk hand damage. Monk themselves are fairly weak as a concept… ie- several other classes can easily outdo monks in grip/damage.. so i agree, weakening monk lower in classo would help.. and piss ppl off.. however.. monks can never reach there cap for hand damage.. its just not possible with eq and avvie shop presently. so even nerfing it for other primes would not matter a lot. And redoing/improving eq for monk primes… already there is items better than the monk prime eq in game for same slot.. but ..made for warriors. Also. same deal with gems.. just never gonna happen.. so no point counting them..
overall, its same regardless of class… either level via shifting, level with a damage heavy friend, or camp pit for potions.. or wait for groups..
4 max avvies i have.. all essentially kill the same areas… ip did better shifting before he got avvie shop boosts. There is little to differentiate monk from any other class now.. but everyones all 8 classes.. so.. maybe thats the goal? Dunno.
teker wrote: How big of a ***** storm would there be if we revised monk damage down if it falls later in the class order?
Don’t do this teker. Some people spend hundreds of hours on there +1’s. It’s completely unfair (especially to primes). Getting the balance right is just something that needs to be done through good planning right from the start. It would appear to me that somehow the builders put too many hand dam items into the game at some point, causing this imbalance. When I came back I saw those hand dam monk rings and I just had to laugh. Warrior is a great class, it’s just been left behind a little, it’s not the only class either.
Eq, is pretty much the source of most of this mess… As ker point’s out a capped warrior does NOT have damage problems.
There is an old idea teker, that’s a real good one… it’s been referred to as “the dressing room” where players online can select eq from the eqlist and calculate there statistics after selecting items for each slot. Obviously primes spend a lot of time doing this manually using the eqlist.
I wonder how much time sometimes Builders spend checking the balance of “class eq” holistically. I have no doubts they do well addressing eq deficiencies specifically of a single class, but class eq also needs to be compared side by side with other classes. What does a maxed cleric in best eq look like next to a maxed mage next to a maxed necro… Clearly we have some eq imbalances, this seems to be the root of a lot of problems.
Also if you started to nerf monks, you wouldn’t take on the wrath of just the primes, but everyone, as I suspect any lowbie who knows the game will currently have a monk mode for melee, because it’s simply better.
As you mention it’s up to the builders to create eq, but perhaps if builders or players had a “dressing room tool,” imbalances could be calculated more quickly and hopefully address class imbalances in eq. Eq imbalance at a classes level is probably the longest running/debated problem in sloth…
Has anyone ever made a list of the best eq a player can wear for ac and dam for each class at 20/30/40/3X40/6X40/9X40? I suspect not, I suspect the result of that would be VERY interesting… yet alone expanding the same idea into all the other sloth stats.
If breeze could provide me with a SQL/XML eqlist, I could have a look at making the dressing room concept using SQL databases. I’m offering… or at least I could create some kind of report for each class, for each stat, about maximum potential at 20/30/40/3x40/6X40/9X40 etc… it at least would identify what builders need to address.
I’ve already played around with the LUA and JSON lists a little and found them unsupported and time consuming.
There are also some other problems that were kind of annoying… There appears to be 2 ways to define AC…
<AFF_ARMOR>-5</AFF_ARMOR>
<VALUE_AC>3</VALUE_AC>
There should probably only be 1 tag for AC… imho, and perhaps the few old items need changing.
- Why people play warriors
Warrior, first of all, is an armored tank, behind which ppl get behind. Playing a tank is his current primary role and warriors do it better, than any other, thanks to hps, parry and second wind. Citing hp regen as an advantage is laughable, though, because a 14av skill beats anything (225hpr caster regen vs 325hpr warrior regen, and you won’t get full mana before hps)
If ppl want to solo, warrior is a good base for the 2nd/3d class: you exchange 2/3d class prime benefits, such as high mana regen, for hps/ac/parry/second wind. Personally, I don’t think it’s worth the trade: if you want to play necro, go necro. If you want to play, like a monk, go monk.
Any solo warriors have to rely on their 2nd/3d classes to do damage, because their innate damage pretty much sucks, even with riposte. If you think warriors have high damage, try killing Lyme mobs only by using warrior skills. It’s pretty pathetic even with charge, unless you are a 9x40, but even then good luck with using capped flail for 120 damage.
If Gorka soloed more, he’d know how lowly warrior damage is. (For the record, I’ve got 1 wa/th to 3x40 irrc, a wa/mo/th/ba to 18av and a wa/ne to 8 39.)
Of course, warrior and monk playstyles are a bit different (presage, focus vs second wind), so some people play warriors as monks, because it’s the best concept of dealing burst damage for them. Warriors don’t have much mana or mana regen, so blasting their way through several solo areas is out of the question.
I’d love to see people pick warriors to deal damage, if they like their damage and active skills. However, right now, this is out of the question. Any damage that warriors can get comes from hard forges, runes and avatar shop and there aren’t active skills for damage dealing, except for tanks.
- Monk damage
Personally, I don’t see monk damage as being op right now, you still need to work for it. I’m pretty sure my hand dam, even in a full hd set, doesn’t compare to Ip’s or Josiah’s.
Monks have just the right amount of hand dam eq to deal damage, it’s the other classes that need more options to balance their eq, damage and playstyle.
I believe caps already limit whatever the damage people can do, and some monk high damage monk items require 35+ monk, which is limited by the classo. If a player reaches 40mo, he should be able to wear that eq, I don’t see a problem with that.
I just leveled to 3x40 and I wondered if any decisions have been made?
I know it might take a while for things to happen, but perhaps an indication about what has been decided would be helpful, as I have enough drachma to buy an item, and I need to pick my 3x40 eq - but without knowing whats happening I don’t know if I am choosing the 3x40 axe, or buying monk bracers.
Will the warrior drachma bracers be adjusted?
Is broadside/flail being reworked?
Are warrior drachma items going to be created or changed with BONUS_WEAPONDAM?
Are builders working on Warrior weapon dam eq’s?
Any info would be better than none, so I know if I should hold off important decisions.
Quote: Is broadside/flail being reworked?
I’m hoping to have something in the next reboot for this. It may take a few tries to get the final changes in place.
teker wrote: I’m hoping to have something in the next reboot for this. It may take a few tries to get the final changes in place.
Thanks, Teker.
Finally, I’m looking forward to a reboot.