Yesterday Tonedeaf, the newest (and soon to be greatest!) bardass, forged his elite 8x40 bard eq “Ancient Dragonmail of the Knights Order.” Unfortunately it does not work as advertised…
AFF_KNIGHTS_BLESSING = 1
The knights blessing simply doesn’t function on the armor. If I sing the song the song works, but the armor does not. Furthermore… could the difference between knights blessing and knights prayer be explained, because they do exactly the same thing. If it’s an avatar version of the same song… then why did it need that?
I know we don’t really have many people playing bards… but there is good reasons for that…
Bard lacks a prime offensive or defensive skill, that’s not better in a secondary class.
Charisma works with about 7 songs… and one of those is an avatar version of the same song. Two of them wake mobs up and make them sleep… because that’s useful in a game where you kill things for experience.
The songs charisma works with are extremely rarely used.
Charisma has no effect on luck gods. Luck gods only works effectively at high levels and now all the best eq is drachma.
Charisma does not increase the damage of offensive spells, only saves.
Songs like fare thee well, haunted dirge, only effectively replicate spells in other classes.
Song of the Mist is somewhat redundant with the Sphairai and doesn’t reach many people.
Sidhe charms have a more limited function with so many mana and health potions in the game. Increased mana regen means trying to find a shard and forge a charm isn’t often worth the hassle, and they can’t be vaulted.
The best instrument a bard can use is not even prime - but nearly all other instruments are.
The most used songs by thousands of times are rina, gods, march and valor… and only gods has a prime effect, and none of them use Charisma.
There is very little transparency or feedback when songs are sung… it’s difficult to determine whether they are succeeding or failing in a lot of cases.
Can the builders and people who create equipment please stop putting charisma on “bard equipment.” In day to day normal running - It’s as useful as firewind on the eternal flame.
Bard is filled with lost opportunities, charm person / eye of the beholder / luck gods / cry of the avatar damage could have all been charisma based and instruments could be made far more interesting. Instead we are part thief, part warriors with very little identity other than “the player who sings gods in a group.” If it weren’t for support classes, Bard would be pretty insufferable. I knew this before I made one, and I made one partly because of it, I know I will find a way to make Tonedeaf better than avg players… but all the same, if classes aren’t being picked because they are useless, they need fixing. It seems being an active player and an immortal usually turns into a conflict of interest.
Blackmore, Oboe and Sochi enjoyed their bard characteristics. Given the choice between Oboe’s class order and Gorka’s class order, I would again pick Oboe’s. I think you are trying to help SlothMUD, but I am glad your views have not affected the development of the bard class.
You’ve peaked my interest, what do you think should be done with the bard class? If you think nothing… then how do you justify your view, given the fact that in it’s current state it has next to no interest from players. If you create something that does not capture the view or desire of an audience isn’t that a failure? Recently you described your view to me as being philosophical… that in games, if people don’t like them, you don’t simply change the game to suit them… and I think you mentioned chess as an example. It seems like your argument is strong, but I’ve been thinking about it the past few days, and I think it more doesn’t apply. Sloth is not like chess, it has always changed and evolved… and that concept is core to it’s draw to immortal and players. Sloth has always been in search of balance, and it’s nearly always been “wobbly.” Secondly, chess is far more balanced than sloth. Although some pieces are more powerful than others, essentially there are more weaker pieces to make up that balance. A bishop or a rook might have more ability, but it’s balanced by the pawns numbers. Thirdly, what development of the bard class?
Usually I can see where other people are coming from, even if I disagree, but in this case I’m more bamboozled. I don’t know what to think. If you love Oboe so much, why wouldn’t we see him playing more often. Instead we see him 5 times a year for 5mins but hear these ultra conservative views. In the past you’ve routinely come along and shut down bard related threads like you own them. You haven’t really added to any discussion, you are kind of elusive, I’ve tried to engage you in conversation, in game to understand you more, but your not very open. You just seem to come past and shut things down.
It comes across like your the “bard-father.” Please help us understand what your thinking and why… at least give us a chance to understand… so we can make our own minds up. One of your titles has aroused my suspicion, the one where you said you were not captive to “prime centric” thinking… and I understand what you meant, but it’s declared kind of arrogantly and I’m wondering, if you have great wisdom to offer… then please… offer it. Are you prepared to defend the fact Charisma, which is used very little as a factor in bard skills, as being “good?”
I don’t really want to see “bards” changed in the way they work either. But I do want to see them improved. Charisma is the heart of the bard class… it means “compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.” I don’t want to become a warrior, a necro or a mage defacto when I play a prime bard… I think “manipulation” is the heart of the bard class, and all improvements should come from that angle. I don’t want to be powerful in myself, but manipulate the power around me when I play my bard. My bard was started almost as a joke, it’s why I named a singing character as “Tonedeaf.” Essentially I don’t have much invested in any Bard outcome, because Gorka can do everything better if I felt that way… I’ve started this character to learn about weakness in this game, not to be more powerful, but to understand it. I’ve heard stories of Bard’s taking down large mobs, and I know how they do it, but it’s seems more of an exploit, than by design. If they removed charm person from the game, what would you say about bard then? Since most other features of Bard seem deficient these days. Is charming undead soliders and what not still peak power in some people’s minds? Shouldn’t charm person use charisma on some scale instead of saves para? Seems a more congruent idea.
For the Record, apparently the bard armor is fixed in the next reboot.
The Bard charisma problem is the same as Necromancer undead control. They both sound like they would apply to followers but neither allows you to build a more powerful group than any other player class.
Doesn’t undead control play into hitpoints of your undrad followers? Not saying UC is anywhere near the realm of being done properly, but I am just responding to the comment that UC doesn’t give you better followers… is my understanding incorrect?
Gorka, your summary of my position is complete, but I’ll elaborate a bit. For
me, the pleasant part of gaming is measuring the effectiveness of numerous
techniques, then selecting optimal strategies using that evidence. When a
thread proposes making a technique work differently, granting that petition
obsolesces evidence I’ve collected. That’s a loss of progress. Granting the
petition also gives the proposer a shortcut (less need to measure when you can
convince staff to make the game conform to your proposal). That doesn’t harm me
directly, but it suggests proposals to staff can outperform careful measurement.
I prefer a game where measurement is king. How do you see it?
Charisma is crucial for some techniques involving some songs. So yes, it’s
“good”. I keep a charisma set accessible.
Oboe wrote: Gorka, your summary of my position is complete, but I’ll elaborate a bit. For
me, the pleasant part of gaming is measuring the effectiveness of numerous
techniques, then selecting optimal strategies using that evidence. When a
thread proposes making a technique work differently, granting that petition
obsolesces evidence I’ve collected. That’s a loss of progress. Granting the
petition also gives the proposer a shortcut (less need to measure when you can
convince staff to make the game conform to your proposal). That doesn’t harm me
directly, but it suggests proposals to staff can outperform careful measurement.
I prefer a game where measurement is king. How do you see it?
I agree with your principal, and it’s what gives me my satisfaction in the game… finding ways to do things, especially when others can’t. For example check out my guide on optimizing coliseum scores for all players. But perhaps my view is a bit more balanced? Your post suggests that “change would be a loss of progress” (not always true) and that people only want change because essentially they aren’t competent and don’t understand. Although that can also be true (and even often is the case) - it is just as true that bard power through charm person is really an exploitation of a mostly UNINTENDED feature of the game - namely a shonkey implementation of mob saves and bad building. Nor is the issue a bard prime feature… Taron played the same way. I’m not much different than you in the way I exploit game features, intended or unintended - In that respect I am as guilty as sin. However I feel that INTENDED features and principals of the game should overrule and be made the focus, well UNINTENDED features must be slowly reworked and shaped out of the game.
I don’t know if you are familiar with Minecraft, but in the game there has been an active exploit for many years allowing players to “duplicate items” - Namely TNT, which allows players to build devices with basically unlimited TNT supply to blow up the terrain. The devs are well aware of the issues, the community is divided about whether the exploit is “cheating or not.” Some players actively refuse to use the exploit. However the exploit has also become such an important part of the game, there is paralysis among the devs. My view in situations like this is that “TNT Duplication” violates the values of the game - that items used shouldn’t exist after being used, the best thing that could happen is a reworking of the game so that it doesn’t violate it’s values, but also so the community can still do the mining projects TNT Duplication allows. This is also how I see the Charm Person situation, it’s really an exploit, it should be removed, but reworked back into the game legally in some way… using Charisma saves in my view. I don’t think that “exploitation” should be a players sole motivation - occasionally we also need to consider the common good, as sometimes these things will conflict.
Clearly there are some attributes associated with classes that are worth less than others. Namely Charisma, Undead Control, Perhaps even Shock or Sysshock if these values are still overridden by Rina, as it was in the past. I agree it’s not up to players to change a game to suit themselves, however I also think that a game should abide by it’s principals and ideas, in the case of sloth a desire for class power to be balanced. I’m not here asking for +500 damage, or an army of minions because I can’t play Bard, I’m here saying that I think the Bard class violates sloths own values / principals of the game. The view of players, shouldn’t override the principals of the game in most circumstances - and that’s what the immortals are supposed to be there for, to protect the integrity of the game. But that’s not whats happened, clearly Juggleblood worked saves para into bard eq in a number of things he did or influenced, simply to suit himself and that play style. Yes, even the proponents of the game style you play, even changed the game to suit themselves. It appears being an active player and an immortal usually ends in a conflict of interest.
Everyone who plays Sloth knows that Bards use Charisma according to game “lore.” But look at this… saves para on bard eq? Clearly there has been an attempt here to “widen the keyhole” so to speak on the questionable ability to charm mobs in sloth which seems a little outside of the original intentions of Bard being charisma based.
Midnight Greaves of Hypnotic Resonance[ARMOR] [22 Feb 2019]
midnight greaves hypnotic resonance oct40
GLOW PERSONAL MAGIC
8x40-ITEM
Ba40 Prime 8x40
-1.6
Spellbonus 10, Charisma 2, SpellSaves -2
AFF_SAVING_PARA = -2
The irony is the most worthless attribute of this armor (2 regular charisma), is the very thing that is the most “bardie” according to game “lore.” :lol: It’s situations like this where I think sloth violates it’s own principals.
sleeves of the stormbringer[ARMOR] [01 Feb 2015]
stormbringer sleeves
4x40-ITEM
Ba40 4x40
-0.7
Charisma 1, Shock 1, ResElec 50
AFF_SAVING_PARA = -1
Obviously I played my part in this saves-para situation on Bard eq. I polled the master players in the game for each class when I was brainstorming about gear. Sochi, at the time, was the most active Bard, and he expressed to me that saves-para was his wheelhouse. I understood what he wanted it for and I chose to grant his request for a very specific reason.
If you take a step back and think about Bard, they are sort of like Paladins from the original Diablo where they have these ‘auras’ that impact people around them. In solo, they were ok, but in groups of people when the auras started to stack, the effect was tremendous. The strength of a Bard is their songs. When by themselves, they are ‘just ok’, but in groups, the effects start to shine. Please don’t derail the point I’m making here with the fact that non-bard primes do almost as well as bard primes in this regard. My point is that songs really start to shine in groups. To remove charm person for Bards would be like saying ‘yea, your greatest strength, that thing you’ve been honing all this time, I don’t really want you to be able to use that in solo’. In Sloth there are two ways to form groups as a solo player–undead and charm person.
Generally speaking, necros have the undead, whereas bards tend to choose charm person. From a lore point of view, that.. makes sense. We could argue about the strength of charmed mobs vs. summon undead vs. animate vs. control undead, but I think the general concepts in play are appropriate. Bards should be able to paralyze / hypnotize / charm better than every other prime.
wake mobs up and make them sleep… because that’s useful in a game where you kill things for experience.
Backstabbing or deathtouching a sleeping mob grants a crazy damage boost. 10m+ xp mobs can easily be splorked with by a bard, or with the help of one.
The songs charisma works with are extremely rarely used.
Rarely used because of lack of imagination? 2-man xp with a bard singing ‘wall of sleep’ and ‘reign’ as appropriate is crazy. (100% deathgrip/deathtouch is good stuff!)
Charisma does not increase the damage of offensive spells, only saves.
Cry of the Avatar deals charisma-based damage.
Song of the Mist is somewhat redundant with the Sphairai and doesn’t reach many people.
Last I checked, Sphairai doesn’t let me deal 1000ish damage a round to ethereals (by flurrying and striking)
Songs like fare thee well, haunted dirge, only effectively replicate spells in other classes.
Fare thee well stacks with grace. I don’t think it is fair to call that ‘replicating.’ I gladly use both as appropriate.
The most used songs by thousands of times are rina, gods, march and valor… and only gods has a prime effect, and none of them use Charisma.
I think valor and brothers have prime effects.
G, you might want to get more experience with Bards before criticizing the class.
The best instrument a bard can use is not even prime - but nearly all other instruments are.
What is this? I wasn’t aware non-bards even have an
Well that’s outrageous Josiah, at least half your points are just factually wrong. Then you have the cheek to tell me to get more experience playing a bard. And for the record Josiah is another player I believe who has a lot invested exploiting the saves para situation. There is a little group of players who play about 5mins a month at the moment, who are protecting the situation… well simultaneously trying to shut down any comment about it.
Firstly lets just go over the complete nonsense you posted…
Charisma does not increase the damage of offensive spells, only saves.
Cry of the Avatar deals charisma-based damage.
It increases the saves, not the damage amount. Confirmed with Breeze earlier.
Song of the Mist is somewhat redundant with the Sphairai and doesn’t reach many people.
Last I checked, Sphairai doesn’t let me deal 1000ish damage a round to ethereals (by flurrying and striking)
Check again. Even with Gorka the Sphairai can. Did you even max Josiah in spell damage… Unlikely I’d think.
The most used songs by thousands of times are rina, gods, march and valor… and only gods has a prime effect, and none of them use Charisma.
I think valor and brothers have prime effects.
Totally incorrect. It’s the same for valor.
The best instrument a bard can use is not even prime - but nearly all other instruments are.
What is this? I wasn’t aware non-bards even have an
It’s called the Shofar, and if you looked up the eqlist you could check your facts.
Songs like fare thee well, haunted dirge, only effectively replicate spells in other classes.
Fare thee well stacks with grace. I don’t think it is fair to call that ‘replicating.’ I gladly use both as appropriate.
This is true, they will stack, but effectively they are still a replication of each other, because they do the same thing, that was my point.
Backstabbing or deathtouching a sleeping mob grants a crazy damage boost. 10m+ xp mobs can easily be splorked with by a bard, or with the help of one.
I have tested this earlier, not a lot. Noticed no extra damage on counters… but have reason to believe it should be double damage… just can’t confirm it yet.
Outrageous, factually incorrect and hypocritical post Josiah. :evil:
Driven wrote: Please don’t derail the point I’m making here with the fact that non-bard primes do almost as well as bard primes in this regard. To remove charm person for Bards would be like saying ‘yea, your greatest strength, that thing you’ve been honing all this time, I don’t really want you to be able to use that in solo’.
Honing all this time? Exploiting, using immortals to add saves para to bard eq? Is that what honing looks and sounds like. You make it sound like they worked out in the gym to make it happen… The little amounts they probably deceived you into adding, was probably enough to tip the balance in the equation as originally mobs only had a max of 20 saves para, that’s what I am assuming would be the max for a lot of old mobs. I’m not suggesting charm person should be removed from Bards, I’m suggesting it’s current use is really an exploitation and should be reworked and “legalised” more using charisma. It also needs balancing against the fact that it probably needs to work with only certain monster classes… ie, bards with people, necros with undead, druid with animals not because it suits me (I can do this exploit like everyone else to my advantage), but because that runs with class “lore.”
I’m confused about how I was hypocritical. I assume it has something to do with an obscure piece of saves_paralysis gear that I didn’t mention at all and would never consider using?
Quote: I’m not suggesting charm person should be removed from Bards, I’m suggesting it’s current use is really an exploitation and should be reworked and “legalised” more using charisma.
Charm Person predates both bards and charisma. I used it regularly on Sloth III before any of the new classes were implemented. If its ‘current use’ is an exploitation, it certainly isn’t a new one.
… I do miss mobs having all skills trained at zero percent. Zero percent ambush still goes through locked doors, it just fails the backstab. Taking your charmed mobs to the warriors guild to practice double attack was another fun exploit that was removed.
After 25 years of revision, you can safely assume that most things in the game are ‘game mechanics’ rather than ’exploits’
Quote: Well that’s outrageous Josiah, at least half your points are just factually wrong.
False.
Cry
“Confirmed with Breeze?” Seriously? He’s a warrior/thief. Why would you ask him about bard spells? Were you expecting him to check the code for you, or have it memorized? He’s a game administrator, not an Omniscient deity.
Charisma affects saves vs bard songs as a general principle. On Cry of the Avatars specifically, it also adds about 2-3 damage per point. Talk to an inquisitive bard like Blackmore or Oboe if you want to know about their class abilities. Or since you apparently don’t trust anyone, test it yourself.
Sphairai
I’m talking about reliable damage, not your highest ever damage on a round where the weapon quintuple procced.
You are correct, my classo prohibits the use of spell damage and proc weapons because my spell saves cap is pathetic.
Valor
I’m the local expert on what I think, Gorka. I guarantee I’m not ‘factually wrong’ about my beliefs!
Shofar
Love to see a screencap of someone ‘playing’ the shofar. I was aware that it existed, and that it doesn’t explicitly list bard as a prereq. I’ve never seen a nonbard equipping or playing it.
Counters
Counters is a great recent addition to the game, but it seems likely that it could miss bonus positional damage. For instance, it could log how much damage you roll, but the mob could receive more than that based on its position.
When I tested it (many years ago), I used a 1d1 weapon against a mob charmed by another player, which reported hp after each stab. But yeah, looking at counters is rigorous. Go with that. /s
There was an unrelated change to fight positioning after my test, which might have unintentionally nerfed this strategy. I never bothered checking again because I’m not a bard.
The dragonmail is now fixed and tested on my Bard. Thank you.
Josiah wrote: Charm Person predates both bards and charisma
But it doesn’t predate all the new eq, and runes that exploits it.
Josiah wrote: After 25 years of revision, you can safely assume that most things in the game are ‘game mechanics’ rather than ’exploits’
Let’s test this theory then. Let me write a post about the equipment to collect, and the mobs to charm… and lets see if the imms do anything about low level players walking around with massive meat shields with aegis doing a dozen or so viscous massacres, soloing draconian lair.
Josiah wrote: “Confirmed with Breeze?” Were you expecting him to check the code for you.
I emailed him. He checked the code and told me it had not changed from how it was in the code leak which I quoted to him. Charisma does not effect cry damage, nor does it factor in Luck Gods.
Josiah wrote: Sphairai, I’m talking about reliable damage, not your highest ever damage on a round where the weapon quintuple procced.
If you factor in the proc damage damage 1 out of 6 rounds average… The damage super cedes your bare handed attacks with flurry. Not going to count your strike, unless I can count my firewind… either way, bare handed is now inferior to proc weapons.
Josiah wrote: Love to see a screencap of someone ‘playing’ the shofar.
You begin to play ‘gods of war’.
Ok.
You are using:
Gorka engraved upon on it ()socketed Rhodochrosite Rune()
(with a dragon skull of silver steel (Legend) attached to it)
insight attached to it)
insight attached to it)
charm attached to it)
to it)
buckle attached to it)
attached to it)
quickling’s soul attached to it)
Adamantine Chains of Vigor attached to it)
the arch-magi attached to it)
rose attached to it)
attached to it)
it)
it)
attached to it)
Omah attached to it)
Josiah wrote: Counters is a great recent addition to the game, but it seems likely that it could miss bonus positional damage.
I think this is likely. I ran some tests hitting sleeping Bakemono’s. Sleeping them first (if it worked) definitely increased the stab damage, although counters seemed to show no increase.
Josiah wrote: I’m confused about how I was hypocritical
Josiah wrote: G, you might want to get more experience with Bards
Josiah wrote: I’m not a bard.
I think that prime bard is weakest class solo-wise and charisma is quite useless.
Both issues could be addressed by scaling “gods of wars” damage by charisma.
I’m not debating that changes need to be made for bard or other less-privileged classes, but I am going to debate this point, as it shows up in your posts over and over again. This is a narrow understanding of damage and how it plays into the overall balance of the mud. This is taking one fact and putting a microscope on it, while completely ignoring all of the other factors at play.
Quote: If you factor in the proc damage damage 1 out of 6 rounds average… The damage super cedes your bare handed attacks with flurry. Not going to count your strike, unless I can count my firewind… either way, bare handed is now inferior to proc weapons.
This might be true for the first 20 minutes of a 2-hour run, but it is not true for the remaining 1 hour and 40 minutes when the spellcaster is running on empty.
Driven does 480 damage w/6 attacks /round, strike does 350 damage, so total of 830.
Warrior does 500+ damage w/5 attacks / round, 100 damage from broadside, total of 600.
A spellcaster w/150+ spelldam and good spellsaves will do about 400 damage on average for disintegrate, and weapon damage is going to cap somewhere around 50/pound, so the math comes out to 550+(4005/6) = 583.
Of course, if you include firewinds/frostbolts, the mage is doing 1k+ per round, as that’s the whole point of a mage… they have massive damage capability, but it doesn’t last forever. Warriors and monks can go all day long. Refer back to my posts on tradeoffs of offense/defense, sustained/burst damage, plus risk levels.
Warriors run around with -15 ac, monks run around with -11 ac, mages run around with… -5? -7? Do you not see the balance of damage levels in light of defense? Do you not see the balance of damage levels in light sustained vs. burst?
Driven, if you really, believed in your own point… you wouldn’t have allowed any other class than the 4 caster orientated classes to wield the Sphairai. And if this weapon isn’t actually over powering things… then why does practically everyone use one, or planning to buy one, are we all fools or something? And whats stopping you from doing that now? I dare you, remove the 4 ac classes from the restricts, and give us a full refund, if you really care about class balance. You have a choice, class balance, or no sphairai for us…
The weapon was intended to bring the classes damages together, was it not?… but because saves doesn’t scale nearly as well as it should, and the base damage of this weapon was too high, the difference between mage and warrior using this weapon really just remained mostly the same. Therefore, it didn’t balance anything. All you did was lift avg base damages on all classes, and the difference between warrior and mage is about the same as it always was. Why? Because we can all wield the weapon!
I don’t just criticize this weapon, but any proc weapon that’s also given to AC classes… the game escalated so fast from this, now we need the scepter to find things hard enough to keep us mildly amused - and so the cycle of escalation continues…
Thanks for showing off the shofar! I might have to go charm some mobs and cycle for it.
Let’s talk concretely instead of throwing around conclusions… I may very well come to the same conclusion you have, but the damage #’s need to match the conclusion. As I just learned, spell_dam does not impact the damage on disintegrate at all–that is both unexpected and a little disappointing. The result is that the damage output of the Sphairai is impacted only by spell saves. To illustrate this,
Razyr runs capped as mage third with -23 saves, 105 spelldam in groups, disint average damage is 275 in groups.
Capped mage runs -31 saves in groups, 250+ spelldam in groups, disint average damage is 350 in groups.
For someone who just wields the Sphairai with minimal spell_saves gear, the average will be closer to 200.
Now, the whole point of the Sphairai was to enable mage-types to do decent damage in groups when their mana was gone, thus narrowing the gap between the melee players and the casters in groups. I believe your conclusion was that non-mage-types are using Sphairai and are generally boosting damage #’s on the mud.
Base damage of Sphairai
2d6, disintegrate 1/6
Running low spell saves (around -10), damage from disint should be around 200.
Running mid spell saves (around -23), damage from disint should be around 275.
Running high spells saves (-31), damage from distint should be around 350.
Monks
Barehand: 9x40 rebirth (~60 handdam) : Average damage / round 80*6 (480) hits + 350 strike ==> 830 / round.
Barehand: 9x40 non-rebirth (50 handdam): Average damage / round 70*6 (420 hits) + 270 strike ==> 690 / round.
Barehand: 6x40 (35 handdam): Average damage / round 55*4 (220) hits + 200 strike ==> 420 / round.
Sphairai: 9x40 rebirth: might get 50 damage/cleave ==> 505 + 2755/6 ==> 479/round + 50 broadside (compared to 830 hits/strikes above).
Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth: 38 damage/cleave ==> 385 + 2755/6 ==> 419/round + 38 broadside (compared to 690 hits/strikes above)
Sphairai: 6x40: 25 damage/cleave ==> 254 + 2754/6 ==> 283/round + 25 broadside (compared to 420 hits/strikes above)
Conclusion: Monks should never use sphairai, except on ether mobs.
Warriors
Winterblade 6d4: 9x40 rebirth (~70 weapdam): Average damage / round 100*5 (500) slashes + (111 ice ray proc * 5/10) + 100 broadside ==> 650 damage / round
Winterblade 6d4: 9x40 non-rebirth (~50 weapdam): Average damage / round 80*5 (400) slashes + (111 ice ray proc * 5/10) + 80 broadside ==> 530 damage / round
Winterblade 6d4: Average damage / round w/Winterb@ 6x40 is (~35 weapdam) 65*4 (260) slashes + (111 ice ray proc * 5/10) + 65 broadside ==> 380 damage / round
Sphairai: 9x40 rebirth (~60 weapdam w/-23 saves): Average damage / round 75*5 (375) cleaves + (275 disint * 5/6) + 75 broadside ==> 679 damage / round (compared to 650 damage / round above)
Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth (50 weapdam w/-10 saves): Average damage / round 65*5 (325) cleaves + (200 disint *5/6) + 65 broadside ==> 556 damage / round (compared to 530 damage / round above)
Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth (40 weapdam w/-23 saves): Average damage / round 55*5 (275) cleaves + (275 disint *5/6) + 55 broadside ==> 559 damage / round (compared to 530 damage / round above)
Sphairai: 6x40 (35 weapdam w/-10 saves): Average damage / round 50*4 (200) cleaves + (200 disint *4/6) + 50 broadside ==> 416 damage / round (compared to 380 damage / round above)
Conclusion: Sphairai gains some damage (~3-5%) for loss of AC and loss of ability to riposte (which is considerable damage).
Conclusion: Highly situational – a lot of drachma for minimal gains, except on ether mobs.
Thieves
Serpentine 3d7: 9x40 rebirth (34 damage): Average damage / round: 52*5 (260) pierces + (250 avg proc *5/6) + 280 circle ==> 750 / round
Serpentine 3d7: 9x40 w/o rebirth (30 damage): Average damage / round 48*5 (240) pierces + (250 avg proc *5/6) + 250 circle ==> 700 / round
Assassin 3d6: 6x40 (15 damage): Average damage / round 25*4 (100) pierces + (170 avg proc *4/8) + 150 circle ==> 335 / round
Sphairai: 9x40 rebirth – why? no way you’re getting higher than warrior @ 679 damage/round, and base gear is already 750
Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth – why? no way you’re getting higher than warrior @ 560 damage / round, and base gear is around 700 / round
Sphairai: 6x40: Maybe, as you might be able to get near 400 damage/round, which is higher than 335/round, but that’s an awfully high price to pay for a short-term use.
Conclusion: Even more situational than warrior, as it may only make sense against ether mobs.
Bards
If a bard decided to play like a monk, you would see something similar to the monks above with the damage differential being slightly lower, but still coming out ahead w/hand damage.
If a bard decided to play like a warrior, would probably see sphairai coming out slightly ahead, which I’m ok with.
If a bard decided to play like a caster, you would see the sphairai coming out ahead, which I’m ok with.
Casters Primes
All four caster classes do damage w/spells in groups, except for the occasional druid the shifts into chimaera or makara.
Casters come out way ahead w/proc weapons than w/o, which is the whole point. In our typical groups, casters run out of casting mana about 20 minutes in and are running on regen mana from there out. A strong caster can eventually get to 50 cleave damage w/350 damage for mage prime, and 275 damage for non-prime.
** Mage prime: 505 + 3505/6 + 150 damage from spells (conservative estimate based on 100 mana regen standing casting frostbolts as mana becomes available) ==> 691 damage / round
** Non-mage prime: 505 + 2755/6 + 120 (conservative estimate based on 100 mana regen standing casting disints/winds as mana becomes available) ==> 600 damage / round
The reality is that monks, warriors, and thieves are still doing more damage over the long-haul, but mages can burst a lot harder and faster in the short-term. These #’s do not lead me to believe that the Sphairai is out of balance. Are any of my #’s above out of whack?
Slight correct on thief damage. 9x40 dagger avg. in counters is usually between 170 - 180. Shares the same “slam” counter as apply poison, but the above number is not with apply poison anyway. That seems to match up with your avg. of the 6x40 dagger though, which if I remember correctly seemed to show closer to 120 for me.
Your warrior numbers are low, not surprising given your conclusions, I know you sent me a tell and asked for them, but for some weird reason I was in the middle of fighting lucifer with Phi. :|
But there is something really bizarre about your post, the effort you have gone to, to justify giving the Sphairai to everyone… when clearly IF the weapon was about balancing “class power” - giving the weapon to the AC classes was never going to work.
If warriors are power level A and A = 50.
If mages are power level B and B = 30.
If the sphairai is power level C and it’s 20.
If you give THE SAME OBJECT “C” to A and B… the gap between A and B remains the same (C). Why are you trying so damn hard to ignore that point? :lol:
I know what your response will be… what about the loss of ac, the spell saves, the spell dam… well all three of these things didn’t really matter essentially, there are areas where the ac loss doesn’t matter, the spell saves don’t matter, where the spell dam doesn’t matter. All these factors in the end… didn’t really matter much… so in the end the weapon didn’t close the gap at all, it just increased everyone’s damage - because the disintegrate spell has a high base damage, it didn’t close the gap at all. Why you keep fighting that completely logical conclusion is beyond me. But certainly suspicious.
The Sphairai was SUPPOSED to raise the damage for casters. As I have clearly demonstrated, it did not do the same for thieves and monks. So you’re saying the problem is only with warriors? If my #’s are incorrect, would you please provide the real #’s?
I’d be very surprised to see monks wearing caster dresses and wielding a silly proc weapon.
Driven, your numbers were too high for monks. Other numbers could also have been more exact.
At max level, strike deals* triple damage + 45.
*Exceptions:
If you fail your ‘master strike’ skill check, skip the +45
2% chance to crit, dealing double damage (probably)
Unarmed strikes deal 11 or 12 average damage. A monk with +60 damage should deal 72*6(432) + 260 strike = 692 / round (ignoring crits and skillchecks).
Because strike/circlestab/broadside are skill checks and attack rolls, they have failure rates of 10-15%, which would have the effect of lowering average damage. This lowered damage potential would be reflected in ‘counters’, because it only tracks successes.
Calculating the lost potential damage due to failed autoattack skill checks gets even messier, and i’ve never attempted it.
I’m not sure if your autoattack figures account for critical hit and massive crit. If you grabbed the average damage from ‘counters’ you’re good. If you just assumed based on the listed values, you’d be off by a lot. Assume warrior prime autoattacks deal 25% extra damage, while nonprimes deal 10% extra. That isn’t exactly right, but it’s close enough.
Sorry for raising this old topic from the dead.
But Driven’s calculations seems very interesting.
Unfortunately they don’t address one very important question: how much damage Sphairai grants next to the spiritual hammer, which was main weapon against ether before Sphairai for most of the classes?
It seems to me that warriors and thieves are main beneficiaries of the Sphairai, since fighting ether was their weak side. Now they got boost there.
Another important question is “Sphairai vs Dark Mace”. It would be great if someone did the exact calculations.
Today I got comprehensive answer on my second question, when saw a prime 9x40 cleric wielding Sphairai instead of the dark mace…
The drachma item that eliminated the prime skill…
i think it’s ok that a 1000 drachma item is better than a skill a level 20 something character can learn for free at the cleric guild
it’s a good spell at low levels and it’s ok that by 6x40 there’s better options.
i think if it was reworked somehow - it would have to be some kind of buff you cast on other weapons
i suppose you could have a progression of dark maces too for different level points.
personally, i think if a cleric skill got reworked some it should be aerial servant.
Not that I oppose idea of turning dark mace into buff you could cast on any weapon.
But I still would like to propose alternative solution: nerf Spharai right into the ground. Make it just slightly better than the spiritual hammer. Restore original game balance, where bards and clerics have held high superiority in fighting ethereal mobiles. Which made those classes unique.
Of course, such nerf should come with some kind of drachma compensation. As nerfed Sphairai should cost way less than 1000. And the price difference should be somehow reimbursted to its buyers.
I would like to remind that for decades sloth staff had no problem nerfing apparently disbalanced things. I.e. there was a nerf of ‘second wind’. As originally it allowed to unliminited actions per round. They nerfed into no more than 1 additional action per round. Probably it caused some people’s outrage. But it was definitely justified.
It would be justified in this case too.
I am very opposed to the notion of “restoring the original game balance” in any form. It just never works – you can’t bring back your golden age without breaking more things and making a complete mess.
At the same time, I agree that we currently get extremely powerful items without any significant effort. At some point, drachma becomes cheap, and everyone ends up owning the same set of equipment, which doesn’t feel entirely right. One thing we could try is introducing more combinations of drachma, quests and forges. Diamond-encrusted demonskin boots are an excellent example of this – to make them, you need a drachma item + a high-level forge + a ton of money. I wouldn’t mind at all if all items that currently cost 500+ drachma took a similar amount of time and skill to get.
My two cents on Sphairai:
According to my measurements, Sphairai does the same damage on average as Winterblade (for Squip).
It’s also two-handed and can’t be used without preparation (you can’t remove a shield in the middle of a fight).
Yes, it hits ethereal mobs, which is exactly why we buy it. And no, it doesn’t make me feel that clerics and bards become weaker classes because of that.
I generally don’t think that it’s a problem that differences between prime classes become less relevant after 6x40. I’d personally prefer to have a lot more smoother transitions depending on the class order. We already have different caps depending on positions of different classes. Insomnia as a mage prime can get -30 saves, Squip as a mage 7th is capped at -13. I’d absolutely love to see the same principle applied to all other attributes, e.g. not capping armor class at -10 for everyone when it’s -20 for warriors. In my opinion, when there’s a multi-class system of eight classes, there shouldn’t be a drastic difference between mage/warrior and warrior/mage.
Regarding sloth’s “golden age”, I feel like a fan of Terminator franchize.
You know, they got a tradition started at some point: every time a new movie is released they say it’s worst part and that the previous wasn’t so bad after all.
Similarly I feel about the current and past states of sloth. I must admit that I complained a lot in the past, but now it seems like that age was cornerstore of reason and balance.
Now I turn head in one direction and see unlimited mana. I turn it in other and see a weapon that is better than the primary skill. Finally at third direction, I see an armor clasp so OP, that many players simply stopped using all armors - which included 3x40 and armors for 1000 drachma - that isn’t compatible with that clasp. At this point I don’t even want to learn what other revolutionary balance surprises were introduced.
Moreover I see that whole development paradigm change. There were OP items/skills/merchanics in the past. But they were nerfed eventually. Now the paradigm is “we can’t nerf things since it’ll cause more mess”. I don’t get it. Why it was ok to nerf “second wind” in the past, but not ok to nerf Spharai now?
In my opinion, significant difference between classes was one of the things that made sloth cool. It provided vastly different play styles. Hence I’d prefer to keep the difference and not eliminate it.
Regarding extremelly powerful items that make players extremelly powerful too, I noticed one thing: there wasn’t a new area introduced in maybe 2 or even 3 years? And maybe one of the reason is that it’s simply hard to make an area that provides challenge for modern day players, who chew 100m mob on breakfast without even sweating?
Incorrect. We had 23 new areas added in December, 2022.
I would like to elaborate more on why prime skills are important. And why you can’t simply make one obsolete.
Prime skills make classes unique. And provide rationale behind choosing your class.
I mean not long ago, one newbie asked me if they should choose cleric. I answered that one of the cleric powers is being bane to the undead. At that moment, I didn’t know how OP Spharai was.
Today I’d advice to choose druid over cleric. As druids are literally better in every regard. In past, there was an exception of fighting undead/ether. Now even that exception is gone. And thus Spharai eliminates not just the dark mace, but the whole prime class.
p.s. The most sad thing is there were many cool changes in the recent years. Like revamp of the drachma eq. Or introduction of new 3x40/6x40/8x40 items. Conquest system is amazing. New thief skills are great too. I am grateful to devs who did all that.
Unfortunately at some stage the game took the wrong turn. And devs decided to introduce truly revolutionary changes, not caring how it affects the original balance. And here we are.
I have to agree with Insom here. the way is forwards.
sphairai and artifacts added a lot to the game. they’ve been in the game since i’ve played (5 years) but i appreciate the work put into them.
that’s not to say some strategic reworking of things isn’t always on the table. whether to add some features or tweak others.
but if you read the forum - there is always someone worked up about some change or another. this mythical golden age never existed except the twinkle of youth had not left our eyes. it gets tiresome.
i will say as someone actually playing a small cleric, it’s fun. dark mace is pretty cool. it does get useless, yes, but its a skill you get a level 20 something on your prime.
you think classo is missing something. then play it and get to 9x40. see how it really compares. make some suggestions.
Quote: but if you read the forum - there is always someone worked up about some change or another. this mythical golden age never existed except the twinkle of youth had not left our eyes. it gets tiresome.
Changes of such truly revolutionary scale haven’t been seen for decades. And that’s a fact.
Though everyone is free to choose their attitude towards it.
I realize that majority likes the changes. However there are a few critics like me.
I’ve offered universal solution in the past - make game fork called “Sloth Classic”. Which would be current game minus energy drain, sphairai and everything op.
I understand that solution is highly unrealistic. As devs don’t have enough manpower to properly run even one instance of the game(i.e. see the broken site).
But still that’s the solution to make everyone happy.
interesting. there’s actually a progression of dark maces built in.
recite identify mace
You recite a scroll of identify which dissolves.
You feel informed:
Object ‘dark mace large 4x40 Fulgent’, Item type: WEAPON
Item is: HUM PERSONAL MAGIC RESTRUNG SANCBUSTER
Weight: 5, Value: 0gold, Worn in: TAKE WIELD
Damage Dice is ‘3D6’
Can affect you as:
Affects: HITROLL by 3
Affects: HEAL_BONUS by 2
Affects: REGEN_MANA by 3
Only those who are primary experienced clerics may use this item.
neat
Well, I saw 9x40 reborn cleric using Spharai. It’s better than even best dark mace.
Gonna make another post in the topic, since some people said “You dont even have a Sphairai. How could you make a judgement about it?”
Well, now I got Spharai. And thoroughly tested it.
And it’s as great as I thought. My character is monk and now I enjoy deadly combo of wraithtouch+Sphairai.
So now I can say that my original estimate was correct: Spharai seriously shifts inter-class balance. It devalues clerics and bards, that once held superiority in fighting ether mobiles. It’s also important to note, that those classes were weakest in the terms of solo already. Now they became even more weaker.
In fact I own a 6x40 bard. And had hard time choosing which char to play - monk or bard - as both are fun. Existance of Spharai was ultimate argument that made me choose the monk.
Anyway, I’d suggest buffing both clerics and bards.
As for clerics, I’d suggest following Fuligin’s suggestion and granting them primary spell ‘dark empowerment’ that will make any wielded weapon acquire the dark mace powers.
As for bards, maybe it makes sense to add like 20 damage when fighting an ether under ‘song of the mist’.
I seriosly believe that a prime skill is supposed to be leagues above a similar drachma item.
Sphairai was needed to rebalance all caster classes relative to non-caster classes.
Non-caster damage scales indefinitely with very few caps – warriors are the worst offender.
As groups transitioned from regen-every-so-often to non-stop, casters were left in the dust with no mana, while non-casters continued to pump out massive damage.
The general disbalance was seen very easily in the higher levels of the coliseum.
Giving caster classes general dominance over ether mobs was part of this balance.
Can non-casters use Sphairai? Of course, but it is by no means ideal. For example, a monk using a sphairai is perhaps the worst possible way to gain xp as a monk – a nice way to take down larger ether mobs? Sure, but not efficient at all.
Bard’s prime song can be cast on a follower while the bard himself wields a sphairai, so the “extra damage” is already there. I’m not against boosting clerics/bards. We did try to boost clerics a while back by having heal bonus apply to turn undead – were you aware of this change? Are there other changes you can think of that fit within the theme of the primes? Personally I think bard primes should get XP from charmed followers like necros do from their undead followers–either that or a bard prime song that causes mobs to follow the bard, where the order lag is similar to necros for their undead.
FWIW, a bard/necro in end-game will absolutely crush a monk prime in terms of taking down larger mobs, both ether and solid.
Yeah, I got it that the original intent of adding Sphairai was to make casters more balanced.
However in reality, Sphairai is just a great improvement over the spiritual hammer.
That’s why even majority of non-casters like that item.
As the need to fight an ether occurs once in a while for everyone.
Particularly modern xp groups add a handful of ethers to their runs. And it helps when group members have Spharais for such cases.
As for prime bard ‘song of the mist’, it affects both the bard and the target. Hence there’s no “extra damage”. And no need for a bard to have Spharai(it’s the only class that doesnt need it).
I am not aware about the turn undead’s boost. Probably unless it does damage comparable to the firewind, it keeps being the spell useful only on low levels.
As for charmed followers, it definitely would be nice if bards could get xp from them. New prime song is decent idea too. But I must admit that generally I consider charms as great op. I always thought it’s only there since the playerbase is tiny and adventurers still need to somehow pop their gear.
Generally I believe that buffing bards should be done by making charisma more useful.
As right now, the only serious benefit of it is song ‘sanctuary for the soul’. A few epics literally couldn’t be killed without that song played by highly charismastic prime bard.
As for end-game ba/ne. I think literally every class order becomes extremelly powerful when maxed out. I never reached that stage, but from what I heard, even prime class differences fade there.
But that stage is very far away.
The game doesnt start at being 9x40 reborn. But it starts at level 1.