We are bantering about two ideas to open up more Avatar levels to players:
At 4x40, every 5 total levels will open up 1 avatar level
Move avatar levels to start at 3x40, with every 40 adding another 5 avatar levels.
Thoughts?
Splork
Hi, mortals.
A little aclaration :
- At 4x40, every 5 total levels will open up 1 avatar level
The total levels here would count levels AFTER 4x40, that is, in the class five to eight. For instance :
Acme’s last logon was Wed Aug 25 19:33:50 2010
[40n 40c 40o 40b 40w 28m 23t 22d 9a] Acme is afk
Would have open up to level (40+28+23+22)/5, that is, till level 22.
Best regards.
Pd. I bet Nobody is going to hate it. :twisted:
nah nobody is leveling up to 40 all at once so probably won’t mess with avatar til he can level al up at once :)
I see a couple of 3x40 have already voted for option 2. :D
I think they will regret that at later levels.
I’m grateful either way, although I clearly see option 1 as a more sustained linear power improvement.
I can see good points in both options:
Option 1: past 4x40, the way the avatar levels open would give each level in your 5th~8th class more meaning, and a greater sense of accomplishment rather than “ok, 20 more levels till i can get something i want.”
Option 2: at 3x40, aegis and a few low avatar skills opens up and speeds up the jump to 4x40.
There are also not so good points in both options:
Option 1: Going from 3x40 to 4x40 will be the same speed its always been, and some people will get discouraged.
Option 2: You’ll still have to gain level 40 in another class to open up 5 more avatar levels.
My thoughts:
When levels start taking massive amounts of xp, do I really want to have to level to 40 in a class to gain access to the avatar skill/damage point/mana regen that I’m only one av level from getting? A process that could take months depending on my schedule.
Or would I rather be able to buy the 5 cheapest levels and get it within a week or maybe 2?
Option 1, I think, is the real option here. I’ll forgo my immediate (but small) jump in power for a much larger (and more logically progressive) one in the not too distant future.
Agreed with Adrix, Option 1 is more progressive and should enhance the feeling of accomplishment and making leveling after 4x40 more bearable.
However, i still think there should be something at 3x40 as well. In sloth 3 we had to race towards 3x40 to get to lyme where you had access to all new solo and group areas and chopping and an absolutely new game experience, it was a real transition akin to getting level 80 in wow ( I remember people staying up nights and days at 2x40 when they got close to 3x40 ).
Now, we just get our 3x40 eq which doesnt really provide much and are stuck cycling the same mobs over and over again. In sloth3 there was a distinct feeling of being under 3x40 and over 3x40 and avatar and the game was based around that.
Suggestions:
We have 160 levels in total after 4x40, 160/5 = 32 avatar levels at 8x40, i suggest opening up 3 avatar levels at 3x40 to give the players that small boost and a taste of avatardom by letting them have a cheaper sanc (aegis) and maybe drop down a bonus to blasting and healing to level 3 avatar, also some not overpowering but class-important skills like sleight of hand ( increased speed for apply poison ) can be dropped down to those levels.
We then have 5 more avatar levels at 8x40 till end-game , those should be very expensive in terms of exp and provide the maximum power boost possible, where you start gaining Stat tokens as well as good skills for every level, so you will have a choice to accumulate a few stat tokens to buy some skills when you reach avatar 40.
Also, since chopping is still 3x40 restricted and some areas on lyme still are, i suggest boosting them a bit, making them dangerous and yet rewarding. In fact, i think chopping needs to be a level up from BH exp and the rest, since it’s only available at 3x40, it should be involving, dangerous and yet provide good returns on time invested. By 3x40 a person should have accumulated some knowledge of the mud and the gameplay should evolve with the players. Maybe it’s worth making a few areas that are even higher level restricted later in the game.
Sloth4 lacked that feeling of progression that sloth3 had due to a limited number of levels, everything on sloth4 seems homogenous and monotonous hence people got bored quickly but i think that can be quite drastically improved if creators implement a few small things.
i guess it is my time to be a bitch.
I read all posts and suggestions and i must say i really hate it.
People talking about 3x40 players leveling avatar levels ?HELLOOOO ?
I thought we are 8x40 mud now ?!? 3x40 player is a real baby compared to 8x40 player and you want him to level avatar levels ? And not just that ! You want him access to some of premium avatar spells/skills ?!? WTF!
And why ? because people are LAZY to even try to gain experience for themselves ! I am not talking about solo exps.
I am talking about how many player ever try to lead groups ? 2? 3?
All i can read is a whine coming from those who already wants super overpowered chars at lev 1x40!
C’mon people ! Not just everybody is supposed to be 6x40 , 8x40 or Av 40 in couple of month playing ! Why is it so hard to accept this is not Sloth 3 and you can’t get AV40 or Avatar skills/spells in few days ? You need to work really hard to deserve it!
I’ve seen quite a few old experienced players leaving Sloth 4 just because they expected to be much much easier to regain all their powers and skills. I am sorry about that but as Splork said, this is completely different game!
I remember Splork was very reluctant opening first 5 Av levs at 4x40. And now we are talking about giving some of ours real newbs Avatar skills/spells/bonuses just because it is hard to level past 3x40 and just because we want them taste it for a bit?
why not working on 4x40 5x40 6x40 levs more. why not adding more bonuses for those milestone levels instead of giving people UNDESERVED presents just because they while a lot and it is probably EASIER ?
I thought you have quite a bunch of Imms with lots of ideas and willing to code new stuff. Why taking easiest way and ruin what Sloth 4 is all really about ?
This all really pi**es me off and I am sorry I am so blunt. You can hate me but this is my opinion.
Cizin
It’s just a game. But It’s a long term game. Dun compare it to S3 and u’ll feel much much better and for those who played S3 before, you can dream of the Avatar skills/spells and work towards it? I’m one of those who worked for it. Not that i’m high up…but well…i’ve advance and overtook quite a few players. Even Wimpy is working hard not to allow me to overtake him. So…Play it to whichever level you are comfortable.
And one thing, I’m with Cizin on the fact that you should work for it as it’s premium skills/spells as getting it then will make it all the more satisfying.
Just my view on this.
Cheers
As your said it yourself Cizin, it’s a 8x40 mud. That means there are alot of levels to get and that only means that the skills are now more spread out than ever.
The whining is not because everyone wants to become more powerful earlier in the game, but because there needs to be a more involving game-play, what is involving about running the same areas over and over again for months to get 1, or 5 levels that really do not give you any satisfaction or character upgrades ? Games are supposed to be involving and the only involvement comes from seeing your character progress, to experience new things and evolve as a player.
Yes you managed to get to 7x40 rather quickly by running exp solo and nonstop, but how many people are there who are prepared to do what you do ? I think all the whining from experienced players answers that.
And lets not forget that not all of us are going to be getting milestone EQ for our levels either. How many people are actually 4x40 and over and play on a day to day basis? There arent many, not everyone can withstand the monotony.
The skills from avatar levels 1-3 are not game-changing, but they are just a taste of what’s to come nothing else.
Instead of limiting the players, grow the game. There is alot of exp required to get to 8x40 and even more to get to level 40 avatar, but it doesnt need to stop there, since noone is avatar 40 yet, there `can be plenty of things planned and done for when you reach it, perma stats, new eq, skill and spell upgrades just to name a few.
The game doesnt need to stop at level 40 avatar and here we are talking about limiting our players enjoyment of the game because you dont want them to get a little bit more exp ? This is stupid and self-destructing. The idea of every game is to get the player hooked by any means neccesary, sloth gets you hooked because it’s so interesting for the first 120-200 levels, but then it just stops caring as everything becomes slower and slower.
I seriously enjoyed your post Cizin! Genuinely passionate and unreserved. :D A real classic.
I kind of agree too, I think avatar being 4x40 is a tradition worth protecting. I’m actually surprised with the generosity of option 1. For me it would open avatar up in such a way where I think I would end up leveling other classes before leveling avatar up to the max anyways. I think this is good, it gives a player choice… level avatar to get more power… or level other classes. Don’t forget there is still an incentive to level a single class to 40 for better shifts/pets/supplicants. It becomes a competition and science as to what to spend your xp on!
For me it also fixes my “shapeshift mastery” problem. In sloth 3 we got that at the same level as phoenix to help maintain the form. Phoenix is 7x40 in this game… so some quick maths… (40 x 3) / 5 = 24 shapeshift mastery is 24 avatar! It’s beautiful. High five to whoever thought of it. Isabo?
jezer wrote: Phoenix is 7x40 in this game… so some quick maths… (40 x 3) / 5 = 24 shapeshift mastery is 24 avatar! It’s beautiful. High five to whoever thought of it. Isabo?
It’s not 7x40 jezer, but rather 120 levels after 4x40 or 280 total levels. That can be achieved in a number of ways without being 7x40.
I did realise that T, and that’s why I’m calling option 1 surprising generous, to be honest I would have been happier with less, but never disappointed with more… unless it ruins the game, and Cizin makes a valid point there. (There is a balance)
It might be generous to druids, but they really need the generosity, it might also turn out to be over-generous to necros as some of the pets are avatar based and that needs to be adressed by making pets dependant on total levels rather than avatar levels.
As for Cizin, his situation is pretty unique, he leveled on hopes of being the first in everything and get his milestone eq and that’s what kept him going, but its not to say that he didnt work hard where he is now, he sure did but should the game be based around his persona and his circumstances? Dont think so.
Dragoth wrote: As for Cizin, his situation is pretty unique, he leveled on hopes of being the first in everything and get his milestone eq and that’s what kept him going, but its not to say that he didnt work hard where he is now, he sure did but should the game be based around his persona and his circumstances? Dont think so.
I got my milestone eq when i was 5x40 and that was a long long time ago. That didn’t stop me to gradually gain more levels and get stronger and powerful.
And now you actually comparing 3x40 and 4x40 player to me or Wimpy or Toxis ? Asking more fairness?! more sympathy ? have you ever ask yourself did you deserve it ?
Whatever.
I don’t want to argue here.
Playing classo 8 Avatar has always been an honor and great achievement. Not a race of greedy people.
I suggest you all move your ass and work harder and enjoy this game.
Cizin wrote: And now you actually comparing 3x40 and 4x40 player to me or Wimpy or Toxis ? Asking more fairness?! more sympathy ? have you ever ask yourself did you deserve it ?
Whatever.
I don’t want to argue here.
Playing classo 8 Avatar has always been an honor and great achievement. Not a race of greedy people.
I suggest you all move your ass and work harder and enjoy this game.
Im not comparing anyone, im just saying those are a few people who are still playing and possibly enjoying the game past 4x40 as they just log in to do their usual routine thing over and over again.
As for sympathy or fairness, im not the one who needs it. I love sloth and would love to see it thrive in any circumstances, whether its a game that’s requires persistence and dedication or a game that’s more lenient, more progressive and in turn more enjoyable for the general population. What i would not like to see is people leaving my favorite game in packs because the game is too uneventful and lacking in progress.
As you can see for yourself, there are a few people who are unhappy with how things are going now. Should creators ignore all those comments and listen to you, Cizin ? I personally think not, as i have said before you are quite an individual, but basing something on minorities interests is never the path to success.
In the end it’s mostly Splorks choice who to listen to and where to take the game from here and im confident in his abilities as a leader and i know he will choose the best path if we give him all the feedback and information we can.
Well I can completely understand Cizin’s point of view, but it does get boring when you play for weeks at a time and only get 1hp 1ma 1mv for 5.1 bil exp and 7.862 million gold. I like to play multiple characters, but the sloth system makes it nearly impossible to play more than one char.
So on one hand I agree with Cizin, but at the other hand I agree with the others. Don’t open av at 3x40 pls, I’m begging you. Most people who get av1 deserve it. I wouldn’t say most tri40’s deserve it. But I don’t see why there’s a problem opening up av levels at 4x40. I would just make the av levels more exp costly.
I’m quite happy with the system as it is right now, I’m glad for the work being done. I’ve gotten my head on straight after a very long time and I feel great. I do believe the work will be neverending and I hope the game will be around long after I’m gone.
Thanks Everyone,
Brad
Some of you guys need to stop being so subjective and think more generally.
It does not matter one bit who deserves what, the game will sort that out as people who do not invest enough time in the game will never get to know the game and experience or achieve what dedicated players can. But what i think does matter most is that both the noobs and the pro’s can enjoy the game when they play it, be it at level 20 or level 6x40.
What are the main purposes of the game ? Why should i spend my time here and not elsewhere ( granted the plethora of options currently its a viable question, is it not ). The only reason for someone to play a game is to have fun while he is doing it. Yes, definition of fun is not the same for everyone, but it shares the same principles.
First of all, the game needs to be involving. I think we will all agree that once you character has maxed out ( i.e has no room for improvement whatsoever ) and you dont plan on making any new chars, the game as a game ceases to be entertaining; yes you can show off your uber char to people and do some power testing runs to show yourself how cool you are by soloing demogorgon or whatever, but generally there is no reason to continue spending your time on that game.
So, progression is what keeps you involved - as basically it allows you see the return on the time you have invested ( i.e you get tripple stab, you can now get 33% more exp and gold to get new interesting skills to extend your character and you can now explore new areas and solo bigger mobs to get better eq ).
Why do people get sucked in so easily and why does Brad likes making newbies so much ? It’s simple - progress is at it’s peak when you need to invest little time to see your character advance, hence involvement is also at its peak. You get new skills every 20 minutes, you get new eq every hour etc.
Why do people leave ? You can re-read Van’s topic, but to sum it up - very little progress for the time invested. If there is no progress in sight, there is no point trying to get anywhere or do anything, it’s pretty much the same as having maxed out your char - even though you have not, but the promise of next advance is so far away and so vague that it’s pretty much the same.
How many people would spend 1-2 weeks forging an item that would only give you 1hp 1ma and 1mv if there was nothing else to do? Not many. So, take away the promise of a new skill and a character advance and leveling becomes a useless chore that people will get bored of very quickly.
Why is avatar leveling important ? Because not unlike the first levels when you start playing the game - first levels come quickly and give you a huge character boost and you get sucked in again. All the players tend to patiently claw their way to avatar exactly for that reason. Getting 1hp 1ma and 1mv might not be interesting or helpful, but the pie in the sky with an Avatar sign on it is beckoning to end their boredom. The longer it takes people to get to avatar and the less their increases in power from normal leveling, the more people will leave the game.
Thats why getting 1 avatar level after every 5 total levels is a good idea. Is it going to be enough ? Maybe, maybe not.
Thraxas you sound like your trying to “keep up” with everyone else, and you can’t and it’s hurting your competitive side, or your pride. Let it go. I doubt you’ll agree with me here, but I figure, if you were Cizin you’d feel differently right now…
I have the same battle. When I look at the who list, I find myself counting up all my levels to see if I am in fact higher than the person on top of me. :twisted: I actually think I’m anti-competitive in real life, yet I seem to be guilty of wanting what other have… more levels. I have to give myself a kick up the rear sometimes, it’s actually some of my self imposed goals and expectations that ruin the game for me. I ran stinkn’ chasm/crypt/pos plane/onyx for 14hrs yesterday (only got 725m) in a group because I set myself this goal of getting avatar before I go on this course next weekend. Today, I forced myself to rent and take a break, best thing I did.
All the same, I agree with what your saying. Just pointing out part of the problem is actually partially us, as real as the problems actually are. I somehow doubt you might have the same opinion if you were far out in front… ask yourself honestly.
See when ya talk in your posts the language you use and the vibe is always strongly about milestones, which suggests to me your strongly goal orientated. Nothing hurts like a dull pound when your driven to get there and your very clear about where you are going. Frustration sets in quickly. I have it at work at the moment. Started off on this conversion project like a bat out of hell, a month later with so much work still to do and no end in sight, I find it difficult to even concentrate. It’s a personality thing.
Is this you? http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ.html or http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html
I guess you were addressing me Jezer, not sure why you mentioned thraxas though.
I imagine Cizin and I are quite different and i could never be in his position, competition is not my thing and what matters to me is enjoyment during the process. I just cant grind 24 hours a day for weeks without seeing how this changes my character for the better. I need to see feedback from the game and i need my next power-ups to be at least on the horizon.
As for the rest of it - I could have been in front long time ago as there were only a few people who were higher level than me when i was playing and i was pretty addicted at the time with alot of free time on my hands playing for 12 hours a day, but after i hit 3x40 i simply could not make myself get those levels from 31 war to 40 quad, realizing that my gameplay would not change for a long time, aegis was not that compelling to me and everything else was too far away with every day being the same.
I had only a few good areas to run on AH at the time as the rest were crap so the process of exp getting is the same boring runs over and over again for my 30mil per hour, i had no new skills untill tripple attack in a few billions exp away, but that was not enough to make me want to do something i was not enjoying anymore.
As there was nothing else to do besides waiting for BH exp groups i switched off for 6 months or so to do other things. A little time ago i tried playing again with a different char but ran into the same problems all over again..so i decided to speak up as i’m sure im not alone in my thinking, especially after reading Blackmore’s feedback and Van’s farewell comments.
I’m pretty sure there are plenty of other people who left that would agree with what we are saying, but possibly cant as they dont play anymore… alot of people that were playing here 6 months ago and were at the top of the foodchain are no longer here..
jezer wrote: http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html
Thats actually quite a good description of my personality 8)
This might over-complicate things, but my suggestion would be a combination of what we have now and the first option. One issue I see with opening up 1 avatar level for every 5 over 4x40 is that most people are carrying a decent amount of sponge levels by then (everybody but Nobody). I’m not sure what’s typical, but my guess is that most are at least level 10 in all classes by then (which would mean 8 av levels) or close to 20 (which would mean 16 immediate avatar levels open up).
My thought would be to maintain the opening of the first 5 at 4x40 as it is now, and open an additional avatar level for every 3rd 5th thru 8th gained, but only count levels above 20. To Dragoth’s point, you’d have a little more regular reward system (every 3rd versus every 5th). By 8x40, folks would be eligible for av31, so there’s still a decent milestone for the last push toward avatar. Opening up as many as 16 avatar levels as soon as you hit 4x40 would definitely open up some playing options, but that’s a lot of levels…
Just my two cents
Skyv
Bah, Dragoth, I got mixed up on the names. Sorry. :twisted:
Not the first time I’ve got you two confused. For some reason to me you are similar.
jezer wrote: Thraxas you sound like your trying to “keep up” with everyone else, and you can’t and it’s hurting your competitive side, or your pride. Let it go. I doubt you’ll agree with me here …
erm what? what post of mine are exactly are you responding to? I have posted on this subject in a different thread (see below) but I have no idea how your response could relate to what I wrote; I have no problem with trying to keep up because I dont try to, it therefore dosen hurt my pride, so no I dont agree with you here.
Thraxas wrote:
Cizin wrote:
- you should auto raise your prime skill (dex for thief for an example) at 1x40, 2x40 etc. Other skills might be raised by eq only.
Would add real diff between 1x40 and 3x40 and 8x40 chars
very nice idea, there should be some definate and substantial reward for each and every 40 a real well done for getting there celebration rather than just a chorus of grats and sense of satisfaction. Of course +40 dr for each 40 gained would just be boring … :)
Maybe give us the chance to buy the prime stat for the same cost as the 40th level so similar to S3:5x40’s buying stats but scaled costs as we progress and maybe only from 5x40 so at a similar level of progression as on S3 and only 1 per 40 so a max of +4 prime stat before finishing av levels (+maxstat of course) (I cant see imms backdating stat increases to 1x40 for all of us but maybe I’m wrong … )
T
Will not vote, as I am still too new to this game to really understand how everything works - just the 8 classes bit is kind of overwhelming and confusing as it is :)
But progression and accomplishment to me, and ever changing game play, and not having to do the same thing over and over again, and some sort of reward (does not always have to be in the form of lvls or power)… all this is fun to me….
And although I am very low lvl, with still much to do, see and accomplish… I can see myself easily getting bored later on, and quitting, as i do not want to spend a month grinding on the same thing, and not seeing anything back in return.
I played many MMO’s - WoW was my last one - and the game was fun - but everything was a grind, and to my knowledge still is - long long grind,(granted they make money off people playing) - but yeah I got bored with the grind, maybe go back again with the new expansion, who knows for how long, but anyhow, probably lost my point in the babbling….
Anyways - I hope I do not get bored with this game anytime soon :) Still have too much to learn
I guess this thread is pretty much over with. Let me talk to the others and get everyone’s feeling on this and we will see if we will move forward with it.
Splork
Good day, mortals.
I gave my beloved Apirana instructions to let you guys train avatar levels in the way exposed in the option 1).
He said he needed to do some adjusting and that he will be ready in the next crash or reboot.
Best regards.
Pd. We will be carefuly controling it next months. If you find any bug on it, better report it or i will personally take care of you. :twisted:
Thanks for the change.
This is a very welcome change for the mud, thanks to all the immortal staff!