Thats right, i want to discuss the druid class. Alot of people on this mud seem to think that druid is a very powerful and unbalanced classo, second opinion is very true, first one isnt really so.
Now i havent been playing higher level druids, but i did play it through all the newbie levels till 2x40.
Now im not going to talk about abilities of the forms, its a different story, what really bothers me is the Normal characters powers (ac, spells, skills, damage) versus shapeshifted characters powers.
Now there are 19 forms, forms starts with a ferret with a single attack and +9ac and at a single 40 you can shift into a wurm with 4x extremely hard attacks and -7ac, at 2x40 you can shift into a naga which has -8ac and 4x massacre/extreme attacks, and at 3x40 you shift into a dragon which has 4x massacre attacks and -9ac. Now you can presumably get shapeshiftable +stat eq to raise your stats when you are shifted - but there is almost none, you can presumably get ARMOR equipment - but again, there is not enough eq even to get you an extra -1ac point, now this is understandable because if there was - people with dragon form would be running -11ac at 3x40 with iron skin, immortals obviously dont want that. But herein lies the question - should low level forms be capped because high level forms will become stronger if there is alot of +stat and armor shapeshiftable equipment.
Now let me give you an example of how stupidly everything is oraginised
Dragon -9ac (3x40), Naga -8ac (2x40), Wurm -7ac(1x40), Wyvern -6ac (36), Roc -5ac (34), Croc -4ac (32), Elephant -3ac (30), Griffon -2ac (28), Cobra -1ac (24) Sealion 0ac (22), Hawk +1ac (20)
Now, at level 20, a warrior prime can actually be running -7ac!!! while druid in his form is actually running +1ac with 2 extreme attacks - and there is absolutely nothing to change it!!!!!! Of course a druid with relatively good stats and say being warrior second can be running -7ac and doing much more damage w/o ever using shapeshift untill level 38 when he gets wurm form, but at level 38 a warrior prime is already at -9ac if not -10 with iron skin. Of course having a dragon form at 3x40 is nice, but how about lowbie druids? Are we not to use shapeshift at all?
I have no clue why was it done this way, was it done to balance something else, or was it just never thought about,but the solution looks pretty simple to me. Since ac and damage and probably everything else is stat dependant while you are shifted, why not make a whole new bunch of +stat eq and make a stat cap of 18 on all the forms, so even a lowbie with a hawk form would have a chance to get nice AC with enough equipment to raise his dexterity from 14 to 18 and would have a chance to get somewhat decent AC, or to get a decent damage get a lot of str eq?
Did you hear about enter button, which used to separate paragraphs?
Maybe if you bothered to actually read the statement instead of looking how paragraphs are separated you would come up with a much more useful answer helxen.
I made a druid once and stopped playing it for that very reason. I thought make a druid/monk combo would be nice at higher levels with the flurry/strike etc etc monk skills at my disposal… but really….it seems the only druid’s worth playing are when you get the much,much higher levels.. and nothing in the meantime to make the wait worthwhile.
Just a few questions and commnets:
Based on Dragoth’s post, is the dragon form only available to those who are either Druid primes or secondaries?
If I understand Eternity2’s post correctly, other class skill such as strike, flurry, hide, sneak, etc. can be used while in a shifted form? If that’s the case, a druid with a well chosen classo and good natural stats would have a VERY formidable shifted form at higher levels.
I’ve looked at the eq list on the website and commented about the large number of items for those who have all 4 of the original classes in their classo. I’ve seen several posts from our imms assuring us that new eq for the newer classes is being developed and will be implemented soon. From what I’ve seen so far, Sloth has a very good team of imms, and those who have taken the time to develop a high level druid character will have a lot to look forward to when the new eq comes out. At least, that’s my humble opinion…take it with a grain of salt folks :)
Well, I have a suggestion that could at least speed up the balancing process a little. We do have all this ‘holy’ eq… It’s given to us by the gods. Why not make some of it +shiftable? Or create some new ‘holy’ equipment that is. Cloaks, robes and belts (girths) come to mind fairly quickly. Or perhaps this has already be done? There should be some +shiftable holy equip one way or the other, and you can only wear one piece at a time. So even though this isn’t a fix all solution, it’s not overweighted and it probably needs to be done anyway.
In the direction of sticking my foot in my mouth, can the druids out there tell me how much of the holy eq is currently shiftable?
Simple Answer…. Stop whinning.
Think of the following….
The mud has many classes, and as you create a character, it requests that you think wisely before choosing… and therefore, when you choose 4 certain classorders, you’re sacrificing something, you can’t have everything, just live with it.
You’re a druid, that’s a choice you made, so you shall live by it, don’t whine to me you don’t have ac, you’re a druid, not a warrior, as you mentioned, maybe you can get better ac as a druid/wa, so do that, different people have different play style, you can’t max everything out, the game has many choices, which is what makes the game interesting.
The reason why i personally dislike any of the new classes is simply to the fact that any 4x caster nowadays can get -11, or hell, almost as much, if not more, then warriors themselves… which is kind of silly, given the fact that 4x casters are meant to be magically strong, and physically crunchy…. The whole shapeshifting deal is funky, and to add even more power, all them ancient shifting rubbish, and of course, it’s all silly in my opinion…
So as a druid, let me briefly say what you are getting…
You may get max ac…..
You have superb regen {So stop whinning already}
You have awesome spells
So now, again, stop whinning and play already. You guys are over powered, i don’t know what coders were thinking when they let 4x casters get max ac like this…. Oh hell, if anything, I say, INCREASE amount of mana it eats while shifted, so total shiftable time is decreased, and when that happens, give them the ac they want….
P.S. Don’t say ‘Don’t the coders want us to use shapeshift anymore?’ Cause you darn well know the only reason you can solo well is because of that spell.
I agree with Hotara on some points, but not others. Shifters have several problems at the moment. On the other hand, they have several advantages.
Advantage:
Probably the biggest and most noticable. Only ones who can show up naked at the west gate and go on their own corpse retrieval with relatively little assistance…. at higher levels.
Disadvantages:
Very little equipment. Tough to get to high levels. Once these levels are achieved, it’s like opening up the wrath of god.
The FIRST thing that came to mind when I was looking at the list of shits is that it seems to be way too open. It literally runs the entire gambit of possible AC. It would seem the best way to even out this class would be to adjust the critters you shift into. Instead of going from +9 to -8, why not narrow it down a little? Especially if we’re going to start creating +shiftable armor.
Hotara does have an excellent point. Giving someone near max AC naked is kinda silly. No offense to the druids, but it is. However, I think the shifts can be reworked to make this more manageable. For instance, a weasel (I think that was the first shift, might have been a ferret) has EXCELLENT dex. Why not start at +6 AC and call it a dex adjustment? This is at least a little AC for newbies to get started with. Next, is it really necessary to get to -8 for a mage class? How about stopping at -2/-3? With some +shiftable eq it should be possible to get to -6/-7. Not great, but they ARE mages. You could create a druid prime shift that gets down to -4/-5, for a total of -8/-9 with +shiftable eq.
I think this would help solve the problem of druids feeling too weak to start and everyone else feeling they are too powerful at high levels. It would also leave room for +shiftable eq without completely overpowering the class.
As always, comments are welcome.
I don’t think there’s currently enough shift items to even get you a -1.0 extra AC. Maybe something new was introduced lately that I missed.
I don’t think there is either. We need more for certain. I think a good deal of the existing equipment could be made shiftable however. For instance, most of the equipment in the gnoll encampment is hide, leather, organic, etc. Not great eq, but at least it’s something that could shift at low levels. I don’t know what the rules concerning shiftable eq are, but it seems logical that it would be animal-based. That would make most leather eq and even some high level equipment like the Red Dragon Scale Sleeves or Thick Leather Arm Bands or perhaps a Crafted Durs-Hide Shirt open as possible eq…
Are there any existing guidelines on what should and shouldn’t be able to shift?
I don’t play Druid classo at all, but would it make sense to have shiftable eq only shiftable if you take on a particular form?
for example, you could only wear a shiftable dog collar if you took on the form of a dog, or you could only wear those Red Dragon Scale Sleeves if you were shifted into the form of a dragon… catch my drift?
..although that’s probably too much pissing about, and I guess you’d have to carry a heap of excess eq in that case.. hmm. just a passing thought.
I play a Druid, Mullah. We don’t need any help being rebalanced..it’s cool.
Dragoth should know better, and been a DR prime.
If you look at the eq list you can see that -1.0 ac is achievable one way or another.
That will be all :)
Mullah
I just want to point out that Druids are not a caster class when shifted. We don’t get to cast any of our spells while shifted, so we’re less of a caster then a Wa/Mo/Th/Ma (at least they could be casting fireball, etc).
That said, I think arbitrarily narrowing the AC is kind of silly. A ferret, if you think about it, would be harder to hit then a dragon. So give the ferret high AC. On the other hand, I could be scratched by a ferret all day, and still able to walk away (admittedly sore), so make it even weaker then it is.
I think the great thing about the concept of shapeshift is it opens up a whole new world of creative play-style for Druids. As ferrets, we can peek at inventories and steal (both great for CR). But that’s where the creativity stops.
At lvl 20, I never shifted into anything except Hawk/Asp/Ferret. That leaves about 6 or 7 forms completely unused. I think if the forms were re-evaluated, the Druid could become an even more interesting class to play, while at the same time making it harder to play a really good Druid. If the class is more difficult to play well, the players who are excellent Druids will be the players who would be excellent regardless of classo. Hopefully that would appease everyone who says Druids are overpowered.
PS - I’d like to see shifted forms improve with either levels or use. I’m not quite sure how (they might already, for all I know), but I definately think that’s something that’d be good for promoting a more creative approach to playing Druids, rather then the “shift dragon;maul mob” approach.
Hey, I’m a new Druid. I know this thread is old, but maybe someone can respond. I have two questions.
The first is that I rolled 11 17 18 16 13: is this good enough for a Dr,Cl,Ma,Ba?
The second is what is the significance of the description when i look at a mob that says “the janitor is a member of the human race” or “the bugbear is a non humanoid” etc?
Thanks
Actually there is a way to get -1 full ac point in shifted forms and it is quite easy if you ask me. Granite i am a Tard Cl/Dr class and i have been able to do it and if your druid prime the prime quest eq (I dont know if it has ac attached to it or not) but assuming that it would should be easy to get a full -1 ac point off of a shifted form. I will show you what i wear shifted in order to get the full -1 ac point off.
You are using:
Add it up if you please but i am sure that that will get you a full point off of your ac.
Yep i screwed up this was an old thread and didnt realize it but ya i would say that those a decent stats that you could work with. This is what i currently work with. Str: 17 / 0, Int: 16, Wis: 18, Dex: 18, Con: 10 naked but str spell IS up.
Granite i am a Tard [/quote:1tj6dvsk]
we all knew you were a tard yinao… but a stone one? :shock:
granted young one.. not granite :twisted:
Personally I like the current arrangement where shift forms get high natural ac, but very little shiftable eq, it makes little sense that a dragon would be wearing a full set of armor, or even need it.
On the subject of useless forms, there’s plenty of useless spells/skills in every classo.
The two real “solo” classes imo are druid and necro, druid has a lesser solo than necro (as it should be), but imho it should still have a better solo than most other classes. After all, druids don’t get much of any use unshifted besides mana regen.
Oh and Hottie…try using 60 mana to get ready for solo (after lites etc), and then spending 40 mana a shot for simple blasting before you suggest making shifting cost more mana.
Psst… Ryn.
Hottie’s post was more than 2.5 years ago.
Sigh…that’s what I get for trying to read and reply to 2 days worth of posts in 2 minutes, thought the whole thread was posted while my phone lines were screwed.
Sorry Hottie :)
Yeah old thread… I know… but really? What has changed? So I thought I’d give the thread a bump.
Most people have made some really good points… And since this thread is quite old… I’m a little disappointed they haven’t really been addressed. I’m just gonna add a few of my thoughts here now that I play prime druid.
Regen rocks… and it’s a great idea.
Playing druid before hitting lvl 38 is flaming hard work if your 4 times caster… and I don’t recommend you do it.
I find it strange druid has all these weird spells… but can’t cast them while shifted… it’s just seems silly. Let a druid, cast druid spells shifted.
I don’t care much for druid eq, at lvl 38, I wear a few +hit items just to help things go along faster.
There are too many useless forms below lvl 38. I only ever used asp and ferret on vk. Once you get off vk, you tend to hit prime 40 quickly… so most of those interim forms are silly… sure you use them every blue moon but…
Druids use to much mana, at lvl 38 and shifting to wurm, I can kill 4 murkwood mobs before I need a regen… which is about 3-5 mins… That just really sucks. I use 420 mana to make 1.2mill xp taking about 10mins.
I think the druid class is cool, because it’s a little bit of everything… it’s a bit of tanking… a bit of casting etc etc. But I do think it’s unbalanced…
The person who made the comment about God’s wrath opening up at lvl 38 couldn’t have been more right…
Level < 38 - Suck Suck Suck Suck - compared to everyone else.
Level 38 - equal or better than some other classes. In one level…
I’ve seen Tremble, doing his thing in a group with his multiple vicious attacks… I sure hope the avatar forms are as good as that. I’m having the thoughts that a -11 flurrying, fastened, triple attacking 1300hp tank deals more than druid forms? yes? no?
Don’t play druid without a warrior, monk or thief class… big mistake…
I know one day as an avatar I think my classo with be insanely powerful for hitting a single mob… but it really does suck for solo xp… and when your not in clan… and live on the otherside of the world when other people are sleeping… it’s will be hard work. No need to get your violin out :p
If I can put a few suggestions forward… I’m not entirely serious about all of them… just wanting change, and people to think about it.
Don’t make the shifted animal use (much) mana, unless it is fighting… or make it use less or something while it is not fighting. It takes less energy for me to stand still, than to play sport… so why can’t the same thing apply to shifted forms.
Let us cast druid spells shifted… not to much we have is offensive anyways.
Improve the lowbie forms.
It’s more mana efficent not to cast wurm spells and to stay shifted longer using the attacks, than to cast wurm spells to kill a mob. I’m not sure that should be the case.
Have druid eq that allows us to cast a spell while shifted?
I’m not to bothered by shift eq and lags… it’s the constant regening for xp runs that is killing me.
Lot of good points made in this thread… it’s easy to tell those who actually play druid, and those who don’t… and think it’s overpowered. Any changes to balance out the class would be welcome by me, particularly at the lower levels.
I know I’m a necro prime, but I’m druid second and I often shift into a form to fight a larger mob.
That being said - I experienced the same joys of getting the wurm/naga/dragon forms that every druid feels when getting those levels. Those shifts allowed me to finally take down some bigger mobs I’d been meaning to hit. As for the spellcasting side - I think it’s great that I can still use breath weapons/spec attacks in no-magic rooms (it’s not a spell) so there’s a huge advantage to druids over all spell casters.
If anything were to be looked at in regards to the shifted forms, it would be to adjust equanimity at least slightly. As it stands now, you get this too late to be effective for your lower level forms and it’s completely ineffective for the higher forms.
I understand there’s a time and place for everything, some spells you grow out of or are used for very special occassions and the like. But this one doesn’t appear to fall into that category because it’s supposed to affect you shifted, so why have it only affect smaller shifts?
Stop crying and L2Multiclass.
[quote:3f9cd9rr]2) Playing druid before hitting lvl 38 is flaming hard work if your 4 times caster… and I don’t recommend you do it. [/quote:3f9cd9rr]
Right, the <40 druid forms could do with a bit of a push, atm druid mainly serves as a class you take for later on, even as prime (imo it’s easy to forget what it feels like to have a <40 prime as your only char, 3x40+ seems pretty far away).
[quote:3f9cd9rr]3) I find it strange druid has all these weird spells… but can’t cast them while shifted… it’s just seems silly. Let a druid, cast druid spells shifted. [/quote:3f9cd9rr]
I always figured the reasoning for this was that we give up our magical and (most) of our mental ability to shift, it’s a trade off.
[quote:3f9cd9rr]4) I don’t care much for druid eq, at lvl 38, I wear a few +hit items just to help things go along faster. [/quote:3f9cd9rr]
Naked shift forms already have equivalent (mostly better) stats than the fully clothed unshifted version of the char, any eq you wear shifted is just an extra.
[quote:3f9cd9rr]5) There are too many useless forms below lvl 38. I only ever used asp and ferret on vk. Once you get off vk, you tend to hit prime 40 quickly… so most of those interim forms are silly… sure you use them every blue moon but… [/quote:3f9cd9rr]
There are a ton of spells/skills in every class that no one uses.
[quote:3f9cd9rr]6) Druids use to much mana, at lvl 38 and shifting to wurm, I can kill 4 murkwood mobs before I need a regen… which is about 3-5 mins… That just really sucks. I use 420 mana to make 1.2mill xp taking about 10mins. [/quote:3f9cd9rr]
Thinking of shifting as a sustained cast throws this into different light, how long can you blast/heal out? I’ll agree that shifting is a poor way to run xp, but it has other strengths.
[quote:3f9cd9rr]I’ve seen Tremble, doing his thing in a group with his multiple vicious attacks… I sure hope the avatar forms are as good as that. I’m having the thoughts that a -11 flurrying, fastened, triple attacking 1300hp tank deals more than druid forms? yes? no? [/quote:3f9cd9rr]
5x40 tank vs. 5x40 druid is pretty comparable, piasa gets 7 brutals at -12 with 2100hp (of course warriors get all that without sustained mana drain).
[quote:3f9cd9rr]1) Don’t make the shifted animal use (much) mana, unless it is fighting… or make it use less or something while it is not fighting. It takes less energy for me to stand still, than to play sport… so why can’t the same thing apply to shifted forms. [/quote:3f9cd9rr]
Mana usage doesn’t represent the physical energy that your form consumes to fight, it’s the magical drain a druid encounters for keeping their body out of form.
As for shifted casting, casting druid spells shifted would be pretty much useless, and casting all spells shifted would be way overpowered.
And whether to blast or not works exactly the same as unshifted, is the mob hitting you hard enough that you’re willing to kill it in a less efficient manner in order to kill it faster?
I don’t mean to seem negative on all your points, but seriously, shifting is already very strong when played to its strengths.
Of course that’s all just my opinion.
Nah, that’s a good post Ryn, and I guess the counter arguments seem to balance out the arguments for, and hence nothing much seems to happen.
Most of my ideas/criticism stem from not being to effectively do xp runs solo… and I guess I knew that might be the case as a 4x caster… but once I got into it… it really does start to hurt. heh.
I don’t consider knocking around ideas whining… and if my idea’s are proved foolish by reason, well that’s all good.
Maybe a better question is… how do casters run xp solo?
Using your mage blasting to play like a thief is often a good bet. Farlorne/Kozakura/DWeb are good SS areas for it, along with all the lyme stab/blast stuff (if your 4xcaster’s 3x40).
Survivability is a likely problem without mirrors or an aerial servant to soak up the obscene stab mob damage, a rabbit helps though.
Which brings me to my next point. Finding a thief or monk to run with is the best xp for most casters, if there’s any around with comparable levels at the times you play.
Someone else might be able to clue you in on necro xp runs, but I have no idea how it works.
Since the forum doesn’t want to let me edit my last post:
Mansion is a good casterish solo area too, not bad coins either.
I feel a bit red faced…
I have been Level 39 druid for about a week, and I have been leveling other classes… shifted as wurm. I haven’t wanted to level to prime 40, and then risk loosing all the xp and gold in a death… as that happened to me recently.
But last night I got 40mill quickly in a two man, and I wanted to try out the shambling mounds for helping me solo… so I thought what the heck level it…
It made an incredible amount of difference… It seems the cost of staying shifted was nicely reduced in that one level… I was actually killing about 7-8 mobs in murkwood before I needed a mana regen. I found I also hit more from that one level… and regened faster. There was a house of spring on at times last night… but honestly I had no idea how much improvement that last level made to being shifted.
Now that things are the way they are… in the context of fairness and balance, I personally will be waiting longer to make any more calls about changes to druids… things are how I guess I expected they should be… I had in my mind how I thought I should be running, as I used to run the area as a monk, and the druid was performing at about half of what I expected. I still can’t believe what a difference that last level made…!
Is it because once I got that level, my 30 secondary cleric levels kicked in on top? That last level made probably twice the difference I expected.
A lot of classes gain innate bonuses at 40, a higher stab multiplier for thieves jumps to mind. Not sure if that happens with shift form stats and mana usage, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
A higher outdoor mana regen bonus at 40 seems likely, especially if you’re regenning faster (of course all caster classes get more normal regen with levels too).
I’m glad it worked out for you :)