Jake said over gossip this weekend that bard was the least frequently chosen class, so I thought it would be a good time for me to post some comments and ideas about bards.
Bards suck at soloing. I’m not necessarily saying they shouldn’t suck, just stating it as a fact. The good solo classes have either a strong opening move (like backstab), or a strong defense (like images). Bards have neither an opening move nor any defense - they have to rely on their other classes for this, which leads to my next point…
Most bard songs seem to be worthless unless you wear +charisma equipment, which prevents you from wearing +dam, +hand dam, +dam reduce, etc eq, which is what makes opening moves worthwhile - so I end up leading with cry or web.
Back to +charisma for a second. Nearly every bard song relies on it. There are a few songs you can use without any, but mobs make nearly all of their saves without it. Imagine having to wear special eq just for blind, or web, or damn to work. I don’t even know the names of half of my songs, because I got tired of them failing when I got them, and haven’t gone back and tried them since.
Being the first bard to avatar, and being level 1 avatar, I don’t have a lot of information on how bards are affected at avatar levels, but there’s nothing I see that indicates an increase of power for bards. Although some of the new skills and spells are really sweet, there’s certainly no new songs or spells that increase a bard’s power. I’d hate to think that at 5x40, my prime class is no more powerful than it was at 1x40.
Some avatar level songs for bards:
increased spell bonus, heal bonus, hp regen bonus, mr bonus, any sort of bonus - while players are awake.
A song that forces an area to reset, or lets an area reset while ppl are in it when it normally wouldn’t, or speeds up the reset time - these are all odd, but then again so is 7 luck gods.
I welcome comments and suggestions, but before you say “deal with it”, I’m not complaining about bards, I like my choice, it suits what I like doing. However, there’s reasons why bards aren’t popular, so I’m trying to offer thoughts on why.
From left field:
Bards strongest abilities are in groups, the larger the group, the more powerful the bard effectively is. Bards also have +charisma, which is a VERY odd stat to see in Sloth. The Sloth version of a Bard isn’t too far from the D&D version of a Paladin. Both also do better in groups.
It would perhaps be cool to give group bonuses when a Bard is leading. This would help them form the groups they do so well in, thought it would perhaps make a true-newbie Bard a dangerous thing to deal with. Bonuses would be based on charisma, of course. For example, AC for group decreases by -.1 x charisma, spellbonus/healbonus +1 x charisma, xp bonus of 1% x charisma, etc. These are off the top of my head, adjust as appropriate.
This would give an advantage to following a bard, give more usefulness to +charisma items, and make it easier for a bard to function where he is strongest. It could also help make grouping more popular.
Obviously, this idea has no benefit to solo ability. Sorry Blackmore.
I think the motivation from hearing bard songs should linger a little longer. I haven’t focused much on my singing ability, but it seems a touch boring to sing a single song during the entire run, then regen enough to sing dreams while the group regens.
It might be a little more interesting if bards could juggle songs a little more. Either to sing a few lines then utter a few quick spells, or to actually keep the effects from two songs alive by switching back and forth. Maybe say if the bard sings for two full ticks before stopping, the affected people get lingering effects for a third tick. (At like 75% effectiveness?). I dunno, but a scheme that lets bards be a little more interactive might be more fun.
It seems like charisma might be a little too important to the effects too. If you compare a naked bard to a bard that’s wearing full charisma gear, you don’t want the charisma bard to be 5 times more effective. Maybe 1.5 times to 2 times, or so. (Or actually you could give the naked bard some bonus charisma for -being- naked, Woot!) Of course I made up those numbers, but the point is that bards with no charisma gear should still be somewhat effective. The same could be said for Undead Control gear, a larger portion of a character’s effectiveness should be skill while less emphasis is placed on ’leet’ eq.
True, a bard is not built for combat, and should rightfully remain so. On the other hand, if a bard is willing to sacrifice ac, +dam eqs for +cha eqs, perhaps his/her songs should be made more potent as charisma increases? ‘Fare thee well’ and ‘sanctuary for the soul’ come to mind. I have yet to see them work in-game.
With regards to grouping, bards’ only contributions are in the forms of Gods of War, Brothers in Arm, and Dreams. Thus, I like the idea of having more group oriented songs to choose from, as suggested in this thread already. An improved version of fare thee well/sanctuary for the soul would also be ideal :)
With regards to bard songs lingering a little longer, there are currently bard instruments that make this possible. For instance, a viol.
Finally, somemore suggestions for bards:
musical casting - ability to cast spells while in singing mode.
ability to detect secret doors/trigger traps
ability to disguise self :twisted: - upon a failed saving throw, the aggro mob becomes friendly towards the bard. This way, bards can sing wealth and glory in a hostile environment.
Got several comments, just not the time to make them….will post some stuff in a few hours :P
Okay…got some time to type up a post. :)
Heres a rundown of all the bardic abilities that ive seen and used:
Warrior/Rogue Abilities: They get a basic warrior and thief abilities, but nothing spectacular. Missing the prime abilities that makes a Warrior a tank, and of course cant stab/circle, the key aspects of a rogue. Some useful stuff though (pick locks, sneak, protect, rescue, kick/bash)
Mage Spells: Bards get basic mage spells, but about 8 levels after a mage would get them. While this might help a little, it really limits the effectiveness it overall provides, getting magic missiles at 9th level isn’t going to help much against the mobs you’ll be hitting. Something like just using fireballs at 40th, nothing much to brag about, comparatively, but it might see use.
Wealth and Glory: Pretty cool song, in my opinion, though limited in use. If you know the area a item or book pops in, it might help single it out to find, but not effective really in finding new equipment (as you need to know the name of the item to sing about it).
Brother In Arms: Semi-effective at lower levels, adding +1 to Hit for everyone effective. But just as lower level mage spells become obsolete as you adance in levels, so does this song. No Lvl 40 bard is going to waste their time singing this song, when they could use other classes abilities (if not singing some other more effective song.
Beyond the Shadows: Haven’t used this at all, because Tetsu has the much more effective Sense Life and Perception. I suppose it might be semi-usful if you have nothing else to detect hidden mobs.
Sanctuary of the Soul: Truthfully this SOUNDS like a great song, if it ever worked. I’ve tested it and NEVER seen it stop a mob from casting/proccing, even with a +12 Charisma [supposedly +15 is the best], the littlest of mobs still cast/proc.
March of Heros: Not that effiecent, but nifty in some situations. About the only time it ever sees use for me is when doing scatter quests :)
Fare thee Well: Really haven’t seen any effect to this either. Not sure if this spell just gives bonuses to saving throughs against spells/procs, but haven’t really seen an effect. Having it unusable in combat (stops if you get hit), makes it all the more useless, if it does work, since you’ll get hit by a proc and the song stopped.
Dreams of the Castle: Highly effective song, use it constantly. Bonus to regen is always appreciated in a group. Not sure how the bonus is calcutated, I thought it was constant, but Tetsu only gives +9, while Taliesin gives +10.
Dance of the many: I’ve never used it. Suppose against Mobs with Fear it MIGHT be useful, but I’ve never come across a need.
Hymn of the Morning Star: Not that effective, whoppie, you can wake people up. The only use I’ve ever used it for is draggin Pthieves out of no-cast rooms to web them (Make them wake so they can be pushed).
Sacred Reprieve: Not very useful, though its had its moments. Very risky to use against big aggro’s though.
Haunted Dirge: Haven’t really had a chance to use this yet, so not sure how good it is. I suppose it might be helpful to for mobs to flee, but i have my doubts.
Flames at Midnight: Fairly effective Blast spell, comparative to a Mass Ice Ray in damage, with several additional effects (increased AC of target, Additional damage to subsequence ICE spells, etc.) Not bad, least until you get cry.
Gods of War: Most used song, and highly effective. +10 damage for every target, for a bard prime. Very good!
Reign of Confusion: Haven’t really used this either, so not sure what confusion does, or how effective it might be.
Eye of the Beholder: Okay in some situations, but untargetable, so hard to use if theres multiple mobs in the area.
Rina Cruinne: No one complains about a better chance of a Raise succeeding :)
Cry of the Avatar: Highly effective blast ability. Tested to do about 210ish damage if save isn’t made, with a high charisma can almost be as effective as a Mass Firestorm (except for the avatar bonus to firewind).
Dance of the Seven Luck Gods: The Bards ONLY Prime ability (save for bonuses to a few other songs, Dreams and Gods mostly). Seems like it will be very cool, but is pretty expensive, and unwieldly to use effectively in any manner of group. (100 mana initial expense, +100mana/tick waiting for the mob to pop). Still, double the pop chance is really good, so think it will always be good.
As far as changes that could be made, I agree with some of what has been said.
With the best In game instrument so far, songs last about 20ish seconds after I stop singing, with a +12 Charisma. Not much time to cast spells in and such, nor effective to try to keep 2 songs up.
As i suggested before, it might be good to be able to see what your song actually effects. That way we can KNOW if the song isn’t working, or whether its broken. Other suggestions seem pretty good, but just make sure that a bard remains in the ‘group oriented’ character type, as it should. Bards do suck at soloing, and should :P
…..
As far as Avatar abilities, I really dont see bards getting much, save a few cool spells. The ability to Relocate to a dead person is cool, and Transcontenental beacons are good.
They get an improved Brother in Arms, but what avatar is gonna NOT cast other stuff to sing a song to give +2 to hit?
They also get an improved Sanctuary of the Soul, but as the low level one doesnt work, I cant see this one being any better.
I really think they should gain some better songs as the level in avatar as well. The ‘awake’ regen song that Blackmore suggested would be really cool, as some of the other abilities suggested, but for avatar songs instead of leader bonuses(as no other class gets leader bonuses either): bonuses to heals or blasts, etc. That might make more than 1 bard more effective in a group, as normally one sings gods/dreams, and thats it.
In response to some of Tetsu’s info on the songs:
Sanctuary for the Soul - I’ve been told this will only work on mobs that are not in combat. So, basically, it’s worthless. Unless the avatar version works on mobs that are in combat, it’s at least twice as worthless (especially for an avatar song).
Dance of the Many - This song is helps group members conquer fear. If you aren’t blasting or healing, since gods wouldn’t work against ether mob, I suppose this would be something to do against ether mobs, but most characters would have something better to do with their mana.
Hymn of the morning star - there are a few uses for this song, but it more fits into the category of songs that aren’t really useful, but they need to exist just because they’re obvious songs that bards should have.
Haunted Dirge - this was changed to basically be a web song. I haven’t really tried it that much except for goofing off.
Reign of Confusion - the song disengages the mob from the person fighting it - so it’s a nice solo song (though of less use than you’d think), but it could CF a group fast, since you’re disengaging the mob from the tank.
Eye of the Beholder - this works well for bringing mobs away from the room that they’re in. It’s of limited use, but then it works well for what it’s designed for.
So some changes to the bards current abilities, based on Blackmores input and my own findings, without giving anything more to the bard:
Sanctuary of the Soul: Make it work on Mobs in Combat…as it was OBVIOUSLY designed for. Oh look, that war tard cant proc out of combat!! wait, he doesnt anyway…duh!
Reign of Confusion: Since this is supposed to stop the monster form attacking, it might make sense to have it disengage from everything, not just the tank. That way its actually a useful and effective song, instead of just and expensive disengage for the mob.
That would give alot more ’effectiveness’ to a bard, without really increasing the overal ‘power’, or making it unbalanced. Just more that a bard could do in a group..beside sing gods/dreams (which is usually the only thing a bard is for).
The way bards are at this point, I see two possible reasons to choose this class:
eq/spellbook hunting. My bard is only a sec, but still, wealth and glory is nice when I need spellbooks for any char. Say that I need a book and I can’t kill the mobs listed in the eq page (not without bringing out my heavy artillery) - I can wealth and glory to see if it pops in other continents, and either find out the area where it does or at least discard those where the little bard can get (there’s areas she doesn’t get into without company).
all new classes. That’s a char where bard’s utility spells shine; bard can wear some very nice eq that the other 3 classes can’t.
I like the proposal of making bards get something extra if leading, fits the character concept - maybe the idea could also be turned on its head: since you’re a bard and you’re leading, you get an “ego boost” (additional charisma for having PC followers, scaled by number of followers and of course with some cap).
Reign of Confusion: Since this is supposed to stop the monster form attacking, it might make sense to have it disengage from everything, not just the tank. That way its actually a useful and effective song, instead of just and expensive disengage for the mob.[/quote:275ema51]
To the best of my knowledge, a mob can only engage one opponent at a time. Also, even if it does disengage from everything, you’re still standing in a room with a mob that that hates you, it will engage someone. Unless it cleared the mob’s hated list, this spell has limited use. Could be entertaining if you were trying to legally pkill a group though.
Could be an interesting combo, Reign of Confusion + Sacred Reprieve. One possible instance when this could be useful is when the tanks died, and no one has the mass-recall stick. I have tried it on various mobs, and seen limited success. Perhaps other bards with higher charisma points would like to try this? (stare Taliesin and Tetsu)
Reign and Reprieve work well together solo, but not in a group. The problem with Reign in a group is that you sing it, the mob gets confused and stops attacking (“disengages”) the tank. You’ve still got an entire group that’s attacking the mob. The first time a group member hits or blasts the mob, that is now who the mob is engaged with - so even though the mob stops attacking, they will quickly start again, and it will be against a random group member.
I think Bards should have a song called ‘Enter Sandman’ that summons every mob in the area into the room where they start moshing around for a while while the Bard crowd surfs. After several ticks, the crowd will get out of hand and the ‘mud police’ will conduct a raid. As they are fleeing, several of the mobs will be trampled and be left lying mortally wounded or dead on the floor.
Comments?
So currently Reign is only good for Soloing. I’ve tested it some just messing around, and Solo, it works much like disengage (only costing mana to use, and the mob gets a save). But I’ve used to to Backstab, Reign to have mob stop attacking me, then get curse off (much like a stab/disengage/damn of a avatar), or in rooms with multiple aggros, to curse or stab multiple mobs (stab one, they all attack, reign, stab the second…etc.) I also used it successfully last night to get 4 Cries off without getting hit. Cry, reign before it attacks, cry again, reign, etc. Expensive, but might be useful.
On Reign, it would be a much greater ability if it could disengage it from everything, though not sure if thats codeable or not. Granted it would still have the CF value with people blasting and such, but it would see more use in certain situations I think. (And like sapient said, Reign + Sacred might be a way to stop a current combat, and keep it stopped for a period of time).
As far as Sacred Repreive, the only other question I might have is: Does it stop a mob from only attacking YOU, or does it stop it from attacking all together?
Just letting you know we do actually read this stuff. We are in the middle of various other mods right now, so we aren’t going to do anything with bards in the immediate future, but we are certainly open to improving some of the more-or-less useless songs soonish.
I personally don’t much like the idea of giving bards some whopping great combat-related ability. I would more like to see some sort of fame system, where a bard goes around singing at mobs about how great some other PC is, and the PC accumulates benefits from it. Making the singing non-boring is the hard part; I envision (extremely vaguely) something like combat, but instead it’s entertainment. That’s a lot of work, though, so it may be a long time coming.
Okay…got some time to type up a post. :)
Beyond the Shadows: Haven’t used this at all, because Tetsu has the much more effective Sense Life and Perception. I suppose it might be semi-usful if you have nothing else to detect hidden mobs.
[/quote:38zrou3q]
As I know it removes hide from mob, something different then sence life.
Sanctuary of the Soul: Truthfully this SOUNDS like a great song, if it ever worked. I’ve tested it and NEVER seen it stop a mob from casting/proccing, even with a +12 Charisma [supposedly +15 is the best], the littlest of mobs still cast/proc.
[/quote:38zrou3q]
As Blackmore pointed out it wount stop mobs procs and blasts… may be it makes mobs to blast raraly? not sure about that I think I’ve seen such an effect in Pos plane.
March of Heros: Not that effiecent, but nifty in some situations. About the only time it ever sees use for me is when doing scatter quests :)
[/quote:38zrou3q]
Very usefull song In desert, for example, or Earth plane, or other areas with great penalty on moving.
Haunted Dirge: Haven’t really had a chance to use this yet, so not sure how good it is. I suppose it might be helpful to for mobs to flee, but i have my doubts.
[/quote:38zrou3q]
Looks like this is the more powerful version of mass webs, but lasts shorter. It makes mobs aggro.
Gods of War: Most used song, and highly effective. +10 damage for every target, for a bard prime. Very good!
[/quote:38zrou3q]
Moreover, it gives about 34 stabdam, not sure due to ’new’ tick system. And not even sure if it is equal for Thiefs of any levels. And summoned, animated followers get +10 bonus too… btw if the group is quite big, then 2 or even 3 bards may sing this song and it will be usefull.
Dance of the Seven Luck Gods: The Bards ONLY Prime ability (save for bonuses to a few other songs, Dreams and Gods mostly). Seems like it will be very cool, but is pretty expensive, and unwieldly to use effectively in any manner of group. (100 mana initial expense, +100mana/tick waiting for the mob to pop). Still, double the pop chance is really good, so think it will always be good.[/quote:38zrou3q]
With instruments it may cost even less than 80 mana/tick.
I have found that Prime bards become more usefull in groups if they are have Cleric, Necros and Mage in classo… good mana, almost all spells, such char may do any job in group, sing/blind/curse/weaken/bind/web/heal/2.tank/shield… and LEAD of course :) As for soloing… bard itself does not provide great power… may be good AC only… but mage, necro is classo make it more able for soloing…
Keep forgetting logging in :)
That was me
I’d like to see a detect spell that gives people an aura if they’re currently affected by songs.
Detect Good:
Leaf flying thru the air. is sleeping here. (Blue Aura)
Detect Awed:
Leaf flying thru the air. is sleeping here. (Gold Aura)
Had another idea for a ‘group based’ ability you might give to bards. First, I have NO CLUE how hard it would be to code, but I know you can ‘bestow spells’ through potions, so thought it might be doable for skills. Anyway
Song of Skill (or whatever)
Usage: sing ‘song of skill’
Would allow the bard to bestow all those who hear it a known skill for as long as the song lasts.
First, I would make this a Prime Only song, thus negating the ability to give other prime abilities (no giving cirlce, or flail, parry, etc.) Also, I’d think a bard could only give abilities he knows, from classes he has (protect, sneak, a bard-warrior could give triple attack, a bard-thief shadowwalk, etc.). Obviously it would be limited to basic abilities and such, no avatar stuff [No singing Disengage, etc. :P].
Seems like something that wouldn’t be too powerful (as anyone could get the abilities with the right classo), would be useful in some situations [giving sneak in certain areas,protect to quad casters were my first few thoughts], and helpful in a group, as bards should be. Would also give another song for bards to actively sing in the group, should there be more than 1 or 2 bards.
I just hate seeing a bard have to fall back on other class abilities just because theres another bard in the group.
Just a thought, any comments, or things im missing?
OOps, wasnt logged in.
Guest = Tetsu :)
As another thought for Bards in groups:
A series of songs:
Ode to Life - +5 healbonus (cure critic and below spells) for anyone casting low level cure spells, say like level 15 or so bards.
Ode to the Healer +10 healbonus (heal and above spells) for anyone casting high level curing spells, say like level 25.
These songs would be used when multiple bards are in a group, one
singing Gods of War, the other singing, Ode to the Healer. This way
both bards have something else to do in groups.
It would be nice if there was a way for the songs to effect a specific
class like cleric has a greater chance of being effected by Ode than Gods.
Just a thought, this might make Bard more wanted in the classo.
Madmax
To Tetsulunathaya: sure I have some comments
Gods of war can not effect all group members in a quite large group, I think its limit is about 8 or 10 persons for prime bard with viol. That’s why in a large group 2 and even 3 bards singing ‘Gods’ are usefull…
Cry of the avatars is another powerfull bard’s song… surely it depends on situation, bard should be very careful, not to cause the massive CF… but look… Regal, Overseer, Kzartaxen become killable w/o tards in group…
If the bard was constructed in a right-way, then he can do almost all jobs in a group Singing/Blasting/Healing/2.Tanking/Weakening/Blinding/Cursing(damning). And when 2 or even more bards are in group, then singing may be considering as regening… for example, if bard is out of healing, he may cause more then 200 dam/round due to his song and regen for about 20 or even more mana/tick… when he does this, othet bards heal/blast or do whatever they can…
Madmax’s suggestions look interesting for me… One more comment here, gods of war is chop-mobs oriented song… what about ethereal ones? Wouldnýt it be nice to have song which provides spelldam bonus?
To Tetsulunathaya: sure I have some comments
- Gods of war can not effect all group members in a quite large group, I think its limit is about 8 or 10 persons for prime bard with viol. That’s why in a large group 2 and even 3 bards singing ‘Gods’ are usefull…
[/quote:22wtpf7n]
I can get a lot more than 8-10. I’m pretty sure I get over 20, though it’s hard to know for sure, I don’t know what criteria is used to determine where the bard falls in terms of who is affected. I’m assuming the bard is the last one checked.
- Madmax’s suggestions look interesting for me… One more comment here, gods of war is chop-mobs oriented song… what about ethereal ones? Wouldnýt it be nice to have song which provides spelldam bonus?[/quote:22wtpf7n]
Of course, +blast would be nice. However, I’ve suggested a number of times that bards get a song that is so compelling, ethereal mobs are drawn to the corporal world to listen - basically an inverse of wraithform. I think a song like that would be a whole lot more likely to be approved.
I can get a lot more than 8-10. I’m pretty sure I get over 20, though it’s hard to know for sure, I don’t know what criteria is used to determine where the bard falls in terms of who is affected. I’m assuming the bard is the last one checked.
[/quote:358mpl4x]
Well, I checked it on gnolls, there were 14 gnolls in room, after CRY 2 of them were not even touched… I was singing with lute (+1 person affected)… as for 20… I can’t understand how did you count that.
May be , when you re-sing your song new ppl get affected… while those who are not affected any more have bonus because of instrument’s song prolongation…
Of course, +blast would be nice. However, I’ve suggested a number of times that bards get a song that is so compelling, ethereal mobs are drawn to the corporal world to listen - basically an inverse of wraithform. I think a song like that would be a whole lot more likely to be approved.[/quote:31ofnm2s]
A +spelldam song would affect ~10 people for say… +10 spelldam. Figure firewind with 3 casts in 2 rounds, that’s ~300 damage in 2 rounds. Assuming you have the massive group it would take to do that.
A -ethereal spell would make it vulnerable to literally everyone in the group. Figure 2 massacres per person at 18 a massacre and you have ~70 damage per person in 2 rounds. 4 people and you have the same affect as above. Granted not everyone has 2 attacks, but some have more.
Well… may be +spell dam song is a peace of overpower… the other idea is to make a song that eats mob’s saves… not sure how does the flames of midnight work, but if it removes mob’s saves vs. ‘cold’ spells (not sure if such saves exist), then it is a prototype…
Wasn’t trying to imply that a +spelldam song is overpower, just that a song that removed ether was actually more powerful. A song that made mobs save less could be fun though.
I didn’t suggest a song that removed ether, I suggested an inverse of wraithform - in other words, maybe 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 attacks get through.
Ah, big difference. Sorry.
I think the Heal song would be cool, better than the blast dam. one. Just doesn’t seem as powerful for some reason.
Blackmore’s idea about the ‘reverse wraithform’ song seems really cool, if kept so its not unbalancing. It would most likely be a Avatar song, as thats really good, but there are already ways to hit etheral mobs with some things (etheral poison, wraith touch, etc.), so not completely overbalancing, as long as it is limited (like blackmore said, 1 outof 5-10 hits getting through would be about right). I think that would be alot cooler of a song than a +spell dam song.
Any thoughts on the ‘skills song’, or whether it is even code-able?
I didn’t realize Bards were ‘broken’.
I think that it totally depends on the REST of the classes you take,
just like anyone else.